A concern about Maya's character

Borderlands 2 Gameplay Discussion (Spoilers!)
#1

A while back, I came across an interview where it was stated that the person who wrote Maya’s character intended for her to be asexual. Considering that the original Vault Hunters showed up in Borderlands 2, this has me a bit concerned. You see, I like the idea that Maya has a deeper relationship with Kreig. The thing is, these two facts aren’t mutually exclusive. A person who is asexual basically has no sex drive. To be clear, this is different from someone who is abstaining from sex; they have a sex drive, but choose not to satisfy it. An asexual doesn’t have one at all. The thing is, though, that other than that, an asexual has the same needs as any other person. They still need friends, and deeper, meaningful relationships, just like everyone else. My concern is that Maya’s asexuality will be used to define her; that someone will decide that because she’s asexual, she can’t have any deeper relationships.

Don’t misunderstand; if Maya does make an appearance in Borderlands 3, I’m not saying she has to be in a relationship with anyone, much less Kreig. I’m just wanting to make sure that if the decision is made to not have her in a deeper relationship, that that decision is because that is what makes sense for her character, and not because she’s asexual. Overall, I do think that Gearbox has handled stuff like this well, and I do have high hopes that they will continue to do so, but I felt that if something wasn’t said, the possibility of a slip would still be there. I don’t expect any responses to this topic; I just hope that whoever watches the forums passes this along to the devs so they can take it into consideration.

#2

Stuff like that has been concerning me as well. There are several characters who don’t have all that much characterization beyond being gay.
For example, the tortured gay couple mentioned in Doctor’s Orders is pretty much nothing but that. Dr. Samuels is a bit better but apparently there was need for another gay couple when Jack mentions keeping her wife hostage in the same mission as before.
Rose in TPS doesn’t really do much beyond mentioning her girlfriend several times and having an anger issue in the side mission she appears in.
Janey manages to spend a lot of time letting us know that she’s also gay by mentioning that Deadlift got “rude” when she told him she isn’t into guys, hitting on Athena and Amelia and even stalking Moxxi which makes her rather creepy, not to mention that she somehow successfully manages to win Athena over who has never shown any clear signs of any sexuality before (which in itself comes with unfortunate implications). Although this has been improved with Tales from the Borderlands.

To be fair, several hetero relationships aren’t the best either cough Lilith and Roland cough and Scooter is pretty much the only character able to keep up with Janey’s advances.

What I am saying is can’t really relate to these characters being lesbian myself. It feels like they are there just so they can have some “inclusivity”. Don’t get me wrong, a colorful representation is always welcome but they need to be more than just “that gay character”. Hammerlock is a great character however.

So I very much can understand your fears here. Maya suddenly becoming nothing but an asexual Siren would ruin her character. That doesn’t have to happen of course and there’s nothing wrong with being asexual, it just happens to some. It just becomes a problem when she is suddenly nothing but the token asexual character.
I always found Krieg’s crush on her to be pretty adorable so this saddens me a bit but as you say, a close friendship is always a possibility.

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Diversity in Gaming!
#3

I’m not sure this is the correct section for this thread…

Anyway, that idea may well have been scrapped. It’s never mentioned anywhere in the game (and Borderlands hasn’t exactly taken a subtle approach to displaying character’s sexualilitys). What did Maya say in the Valentines Day DLC when Moxxi asked about each vault hunters love life? I can’t remember, and that might yield more clues.

But it’s highly probable this character trait was forgotten about, especially if multiple writers were involved.

#4

Please, don’t remind me.

That’s probably my most hated trope “2 random people who had 0 chemistry not only got together between games/movies/whatever but also broke up” it’s ultra lazy setup for lame drama

I kinda miss Bl1 where every NPC was stationary and didn’t say much outside mission stuff, thier personality “gimmick” (Marcus is a salesman, Zed is a “doctor”, Tannis is paranoid, Crazy Earl is crazy) and generally being apathetic about living on Pandora.

#5

Sorry sorry. When I saw you replying here I immediately thought of the other time we talked about this.
It was the shining example of a bad relationship so it couldn’t not be mentioned.

I do miss the simple times of BL1 myself.

#6

This reminds me so much of [NAME RETRACED TO NOT BREAK FORUMS RULES] arguing that everyone needs to be included for the sake of inclusivity, that having a token character is needed for every game, even if they’re not well written.

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#7

At least it’s not Uncharted where they pulled the “together at end of game, split by the start of the sequel” TWICE!

But at least Nate and Elena have chemistry and dialouge, rather than two characters who had nothing between them.

Not to mention the terrible mishandling of personalities between games. ( Mord went from Badass Sniper/Pistol enthusiast with a Bird, who happened to be Latin-American accented to full-on Drunk, depressed sniper who was cartoonishly Mexican).

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#8

Just going to move this to the BL2 spoilers section.

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#9

Who?

A forum member (which would explain redacting) or Burch (where redacting seems overkill).

One of the things I disliked most about the writing wasn’t the actual content but things like the IGN preview for TTAODK where Mr Torgue says “I just realised we’ve never met in person before YOU ARE VERY ATTRACTIVE!” Instead of just letting the demo continue, they stopped and said “again, Borderlands is progressive Mr Torgue is bisexual”.

Firstly, the notion that characters are bisexual because they say a line complementing you on your appearance with no additional coding done to check which character it is, seems kinda iffy to me (and is just dumb, would Torgue really be sexually attracted to Gaige, Salvador, Zer0, Axton, Krieg and Maya?).

Secondly it ruins the joke. That line would be hilarious because it’s Torgues no subtly approach to conversation, but stopping the preview to tell us as the omnipresent writer that he is dead serious and finds us attractive ruins that.

If nothing had been said, it wouldn’t even take away his Bisexuaility, it would be ambiguous and funny trying to work out what a character known for over-the-top Dialouge meant.

The notion that a man calling 4/6 chance a man attractive is meant to tell the audience that this character is bisexual is also pretty bad.

I tend to avoid these threads because, firstly I don’t play much Bl2 or TPS anymore, and secondly they never end well.

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#10

This.

#11

It seems like being straight is a rare thing in BL2

#12

It isn’t, but not being straight got a lot of publicity. Personally I think too much has been said on both sides of the issue. As Psychic once said, it doesn’t matter who’s private bits you would like to press yours against, what does matter is your character. I think outside of the game Birch put too much emphasis on his wanting to be inclusive and include everybody and his detractors put too much emphasis on their own neurosis in telling him he was wrong.

As far as Maya’s sexuality goes, my wife tends to play her and I play Krieg so we go with his intro video and say they’re a couple. :dukecigar:

#13

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#14

I actually kind of like the gay characters, minor or not and I think they’ve done a good job of not just having a lesbian or bi woman and letting that be their sole token gay. I don’t think the representation has been over done. I think it just tends to stick with people more because it is still somewhat uncommon in games. There were plenty of straight couples/relationships mentioned and talked about. (Granted, half were with Moxxi, but still …)

With Janey and Athena now being a couple and having their relationship play into the plot in Tales, it feels really good and I enjoy the extra depth it provides. I’d kind of like to see how that plays out in the next BL, assuming they’re still around.

@BlackHeartV – What do you mean exactly when you say, ‘Which in itself comes with unfortunate implications’? I had just assumed that Athena was so busy waging holy war against Atlas that she just didn’t have time/interest in an SO.

#15

Athena, a character who’s shown never sexuality before, suddenly falls for the only woman who has ever shown attraction to her. Realistically, the number of gay people is much, much lower than straight ones (although many are in the closet still). Sounds way too much like that sexuality suddenly developed out of nowhere or even worse, that she chose it.
It isn’t necessarily meant to be that way but the way it developed makes it sound like that, hence “unfortunate implications”.

#16

The way I always thought about it was that since she’d been raised by Atlas to never feel emotion, she agreed to get with Janey so she could know what love and compassion felt like, maybe even as an attempt to be more normal and an attempt to break the teachings that were beat into her head since childhood. I never saw it as Athena being a lesbian, more just that she wanted to be loved by someone after realizing her teachings to avoid emotional attachments had been bullsh*t meant to keep her in line.

#17

As far as the Doctor’s Orders mission goes, I don’t have any real issue with the token gay and lesbian couples. This isn’t because “Yay, Inclusiveness!”, but because they’re bit characters. They spout their few lines of dialogue, then we never see or hear them again. If they were more important, I wouldn’t be as forgiving, but as it is, I’m willing to let it slide.

Also, I think it’s worth noting that the Samuels audio log actually illustrates two things: first, that even with Jack in charge, there are still some decent human beings working at Hyperion, and second, those decent human beings are treated just as badly as Jack’s enemies. If I’m remembering correctly, the only person we’ve seen working for Jack up to that point is Angel, and she’s passing herself off as an AI, so I don’t think that really counts. Samuels is the first we see of how Jack treats the people who work under him.

As for Athena, I don’t have issues with how her character was developed. To me, it seems pretty natural. Conscripted by Atlas as a child, she was trained as an assassin at the exclusion of all else. Sexuality either wasn’t important, or was outright forbidden. After her defection, she takes work as a mercenary. You don’t hire mercs to take them on dates; combine this with the fact that Athena was doing whatever it took to keep herself fed, and sex is going to be the last thing on her mind. In addition, neither she nor the people of Pandora are particularly social, so there’s little to bring the issue up outside of work.

Enter Janey. Janey isn’t Athena’s employer, so there’s no employer/employee disconnect. She has no issues hitting on Athena. Athena, however, has no idea how to respond to this, so she informs Janey that she’s going to focus on the job. At this point, Janey’s advances stop. It’s still pretty clear that she likes Athena, but she backs off and gives her room to both do her job, and let her get used to the fact that she likes her.

Now, during TVHM, Athena makes it clear that she was in a relationship with Janey (the game itself gives no clue how long the relationship lasted, though Tales from the Borderlands makes it clear that the relationship is ongoing). It’s worth noting, though, that the Athena that admits to being with Janey isn’t the one that the player is controlling; it’s the one relating the story. The player-controlled Athena is still focused on the job, and continues to be for the rest of the story. It’s only after leaving Jack’s employ that she decided to give a relationship with Janey a try. Even though she was focused on the job, she still had plenty of time to think about things.

To me, the thoughts going through Athena’s head aren’t focused around gender; they’re focused around the fact that someone actually finds her attractive. She doesn’t wear figure-revealing clothes, she doesn’t wear makeup, and she can kill you more ways than she can count. She’s not used to the idea that someone could find her attractive, and has no idea how to react to that, much less have an actual relationship with someone.

Even then, her relationship with Janey isn’t about making out or getting laid; it’s about learning more about herself. Even after her defection, she was still very much the assassin that Atlas made her; not surprising, since she needed to put food on the table, and that was pretty much her only marketable skill. Now, though, she has a chance to try other things out. Maybe Janey takes Athena to a movie, and she discovers that she really likes comedy. Maybe they go to a club, but have to leave inside an hour because Athena nearly ran a guy through for grabbing her ass.

Also, it’s not like Athena’s relationship with Janey is perfect. As I understand the events in Tales from the Borderlands, Athena is doing Bounty Hunting behind Janey’s back. Janey asked her to quit, so Athena is simply doing it behind her back instead of actually stopping. That’s not good for a relationship, no matter how long it’s been going. Athena is putting her relationship with Janey at risk, and may even be destroying it.

Anyway, I’ll wrap this up. It went on longer than I intended, and I think it’s rambling a bit.

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