Of maths, fire rate and extra shots

Borderlands: The Pre-Sequel Nisha the Lawbringer
#1

Hell’s coming with me gives you chances to shoot twice.

Which is a form of fire rate boost, so to speak.
However, my mind can’t wrap itself around what Hell’s can do to guns with very slow fire rate, like the Min min lighter or the Plunkett.

Seems to me that a 50% chance to shoot twice is a better deal than a 50% fire rate increase for slow weapons… but the part of my brain that does math says no.
I have no real math skills, but… is there a difference ?

Lighting the math signal:
@Derch
@Sljm
@BookEmDano

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Why is....B0re so unpredictable!
#2

On average, with no other factors, I’ll say no. But you’ll get those nice moments when you fire off 6 shots in the span of about 3.

But, it’s not actually a choice, because the alternative to Hell’s are not 9% Fire Rate per 1 skill point.

You will have other Fire Rate. Which actually makes Hell’s even better, because it works with your Fire Rate. The faster you fire, the faster you get Extra Shots. You might say that Hell’s multiplies your DPS by 1.45 on average at 5/5.

That may not be specifically accurate, because I seem to recall that the game counts Fire Rate Delay from the Extra Shot and not the normal shot (which is why people thought Two Fang didn’t work over 10 FR).

But it’s more accurate than saying it’s a Fire Rate increase.

If you want a more numerical answer, I could give it a shot, but it would take me some time because this isn’t something I really tackled before. The main odd bit would be considering the Fire Rate of the Extra Shot and accounting for it in the timing for the next normal shot.

But to return to your original question:
“Is X% Hell’s better than X% Fire Rate?”

I’ll respond with a question:
“Is X% Type B Critical better than X% Type A Critical?”

I think this illustrates the question in a light you’re more familiar with.

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#3

(this new forum is pretty nifty: I can see you editing that post in real time :slight_smile: )

Revelation!
Yes! : That is EXACTLY what I needed to read :smile:
It now makes perfect sense and the 2 parts of my brain that were arguing both get it now.

I don’t know why I couldn’t see it that way before… Thanks a LOT!

I guess when you already have Quick shot, showdown and Unchained, Hell’s is a better choice than Faster 'n you. (as long as you don’t care much for reload or swap speed)

#4

Pretty soon, “watching Sljm edit posts” will be a pastime among the more frequent members.

2 Likes
#5

I already did a LOT of testing with two fangs and fire rates back in BL2, and playing around with Hell’s this time, I got about the same results: above 10FR, Hell’s breaks and still works… but not as much as it should. (Testing is also easier this time, as you can get to 99% chance with the right COM)

Interesting detail: the Sledge’s shotty’s second shot interacts weirdly with Hell’s… I should test this more.

#6

I have been wondering what it would do with extra shot guns like sledges… Also have been wondering, how would Hell’s work with Clappys One Shot Wonder? (the one where you shoot your full mag out at once)

#7

I usually get 3 shots instead of 2, but I DID get 4 on some occasions, suggesting that the second shot comes out at more than 10FR.

As for one shot wonder, testing it would require a lot of luck and perfect timing… but i’m guessing that Hell’s would have no effect since OSW already empties your mag.

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#8

Hm, so each Sledge shot can trigger Hell’s.

Interesting.

#9

in the long run, a 50% fire rate increases is silghtly better than 50% chance to fire twice, unless you are using jakobs.

though, with the slow stuff like flakker the occasional double shot is awesome.

#10

Mmh double flakker tombstone crit shots at boss fights.

#11

No.

1.5x = 1.5x

Plus, Fire Rate rounds down to frames.

But you probably won’t only have 50% Fire Rate, in which case it looks more like this:

Fire Rate <=> Extra Shot
(1.5+F)x <=> 1.5(1+F)x
In this case, any Fire Rate at all causes Extra Shot to give you more “average Fire Rate”

Which is what I said earlier. Hell’s works with Fire Rate, it’s multiplicative.

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#12

How is that ???
Why ?
How ?
Who ?
…What ???

#13

Not actually sure how the fire rate stuff works. does the next shot come after the first shot or after the second shot? yes i know how confusing that is.
:…:…:…:…:(Dont have)
::…:…:…::…:Does it work like this? (awesome)
::…:…:…::…:Or this? (only great)

Either way, did i ever say not to get HCWM? Its a great skill. especially with jakobs.

#14

I get what you mean, but in the kinds of fire rates double shots are usefuls, the difference is laughably small. I think fire rate is calculated using the 2nd method you showed (that is, fire rate taking the extra shot into account for timing purposes) but don’t quote me on that.

Other factors to consider:

  • These 2 kinds of bonus are functionally multiplicative with one another, so if you already have one from somewhere else, you should probably get the other. (so with Nisha, Hell’s is almost always better)
  • Above 10 FR, the extra shot skills break and no longer give the bonus they are supposed to.
  • Fire rates have soft caps, which means that their value is often rounded down. So a 50% fire rate boost might just be a 45.2% bonus…
#15

It’s also a false dichotomy in the first place given how her skill trees are laid out.

You’re not actually choosing between one or the other. Actually, you probably already took Faster n’ You to get to Hell’s, which makes it even more powerful. And then there’s the 25% bonus during Showdown…

It’s not actually an interesting comparison, because you will have Fire Rate. Which means, you should have Hell’s, if you’re investing that far. It’s better than High Noon by a ridiculous margin.

If you like, with just Faster n’ You, Hell’s gives you on average 1.35*1.45 = 1.95x average firing speed. From 1.35, that’s +60% “Fire Rate.”

1.35 * .45 = +60%
(1+Fire Rate) * Hell’s Chance = Average +Fire Rate Equivalence from Hell’s

My spec has 9/5 Faster n’ You and 5/5 Quick Shot
1.98 * .45 = +89.1% “Fire Rate” from Hell’s. That’s +17.82% per point.

Enjoy your multiplicativeness.

[Build] Jakobs Nisha - Level 70 with Eclipse/Eos Video