Skill changes for moze (collection)

Borderlands 3 Moze the Gunner
#1

I don’t know if this already exists. We got a huge thread for class mods. But the problem lies deeper. Moze needs some skill reworks and I wanna see what the moze mob mostly cares about.

Splash damage and resistance
She basically needs Amara’s “Arms Deal”
With weapons like the Boom sickle, you are pretty much killing yourself faster than your enemies. Also, she is all about splash damage, so why doesn’t she have a single damage buff for that?

Sustain
That’s probably the biggest problem. Her only skill that gives her a bit of sustain, needs her to spam a very specific kind of grenades and other than that she doesn’t really have any effective health or shield regent, considering that the SoR capstone doesn’t work with 1 HP and her shield recharge skills are working kinda against blood letter.
She needs active shield restoring or an other kind of life leech that you can also use for shields with blood letter.
A common suggestion is to expand vampyr on any splash damage.

Co-op with IB
That topic is controversial because many people actually like the titan fall gameplay. But the 2 should at least have a bit more of a co-op experience. Maybe increase the time of auto bear and give them some synergy skills like other VHs have with their summons.

Useless skills
There are some…questionable skills.

Matches sets
I don’t really know if anyone besides me is using this skill. It really hurts build diversity.
Maybe change this to a flat amount? Or just get rid of the skill since it’s just a worse iron bank and replace it with something useful like the new COM effect. Moze needs life steal in her skill tree, not on a com.

Force feedback
Not much to say. It’s a worse version of an universal guardian rank skill. Nuff said.
Just use this slot for something that really helps her keeping her shields up.

That’s just the “most important” things that come to my mind.
Let me hear your thoughts.

Moze is the best. But she needs some love from you GB.

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#2

I have a hunch that in the update where they will integrate Mayhem 2.0, they will review and improve various negative aspects of all the characters, in this case, Zane, Fl4k and Amara need an increase in damage in their action skills while Moze needs more synergy between her abilities and equipment and if possible a little more passive damage for her and the Iron Bear to make them more efficient. (If I have grammatical errors it is because I am using the classic Google translator :P)

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#3

Auto bear needs some changes. Hopping in to exit immediately in order to activate anointments is pretty much a ~5s stunlock every ~20s. I never thought i’d see mechanics/gimmicks worse than the bee or grog nozzle + chain lightning. She could be as good as zane, and i’d still be reluctant to play her with the current iron bear-anointments iteration.

Vampyr needs to change as well and band-aid coms are not going to fix this. It limits a vh that is supposed to get the most out of grenades to a spamming machine with only 2, maybe 3 viable grenades if you want to survive. Seeing literally dozens of homing proyectiles exploding can be disrupting specially in coop with people not used to that. Ultimately renders any IB weapon that doesn’t do splash damage useles too.

Then you have skills like click click, selfless vengeance and torgue cross-promotion.
When transformer gives you ammo it can mess with your magazine size and reloading to fix it causes you to lose the blast master bonus. Sometimes my kyb’s worth ended up with a 10 clip magazine.

Finally, even though you can make some stuff work, she feels so weak compared to other vh in terms of damage with very little going for her.

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#4

Yea, a whole mechanic change for iron bear would be awesome. I just kinda gave up on that but I’m happy, people are still speaking up for that :slight_smile:

#5

The shortfuse capstone is a massive splash damage buff, if you build for it. I agree with you on resistance, although Armoured Infantry helps.

This would be too much I reckon. Have you tried building away from desperate measures and upto the blue capstone? You’ll find that vampyr, bloodletter and shortfuse can be pretty effective.

The new harmaggedon guardian perk should give enough damage to do a rocketeer coop build. Now that SSB gives the right amount of fuel, you could have it up 24/7 if you sacrificed the ability to heal your massive shields. The fact that IB takes aggro should help.

There are. However.
Matched set is better than Iron Bank if you use at least four weapons of type, especially for its placement in the skill tree. I guess if you don’t want to use one manufacturer it’s not so good, but it’s not a bad skill that needs fixing.

Force Feedback should be the shield steal skill that you want. That’d just make sense. It’s entirely useless as is.

Even a skill that was trash, Fire in the Skag den is now useful due to the Harmaggeddon guardian perk, and should have at least one point in every build simply for the extra 5% damage on all weapons from having a fire dot proc.

All in all, Moze is almost fixed. I’m definitely seeing less death and more damage post patch. Moze’s ability to keep firing in FFYL entirely halts the countdown timer when you go down as long as you do damage with the new guardian rank perk. So it’s difficult to die.

Maybe take the opportunity with these new tweaks to try some things that you haven’t and see if you can make something new work with the way you want to play?

1 Like
#6

I am running a SF build
SF does not buff splash damage, it buffs high fire rate/bullet count

Vampyr only works with grenades and has nothing to do with SF

This post is not about how you can manage to have fun with moze
I do have fun with her
It’s about improving her skillset to make her a balanced and not pigeonholed character

Every other character has like 3 different play styles by default
Moze has to equip class mods to achieve that

#7

I’d love to see Vampyr being splash damage based, that’s how it alredy works for IB. While it would be nowhere near as effective as “12% lifesteal” it would at least leave you with a lot more options.

As for builds who don’t use Vampyr:

Well I usually don’t spec into Shield of Retribution so I leave the suggestions for those who do.

Bottomless Mags doesn’t even have a skill with defensive utility iirc. but I guess you could add something like “reduce the damage taken based on the amount of bullets your magazine (more bullets = less damage)” to Iron Bank or some movement speed to Rushin Offensive.

#8

Have you read the short fuse skill analysis by @Prismatic? It’s pinned on the main post. It explains better than I can what I mean. You’re right though, short fuse works best with high fire rate, high damage weapons. It just happens to work better with ones that do splash damage also.

What I mean by bloodletter, vampyr and short fuse is, well, I messed around with a BBB shield with amp, specced into AI and VI only and put all the other points in Blue to Shortfuse and Green to Scorching RPMs. It worked really well.
Throw away your deathless, there are far better ways to pick up gun damage than one skill in the red tree.

I didn’t really come here to argue. I’d recommend reading the Moze gun damage breakdown and the math without numbers posts on the Moze master post. It might change the way you look at things.

It might not.

#9

Its just…in don’t care about damage
More about playing a cool, funny way and also surviving and feeling like having some synergy
I am using a BBB right now, I think that SoR and deathless are a great combination and I don’t plan to change that just because there are “better” ways
A characters skilltree should support synergies and player experimentation
I am aware of the fact that SF works good with splash weapons because both get buffed by the DW skill tree
However if you were running a rocket launcher build, it would for example do nothing for you.
You would rather go for “forge” for eternal ammo.
As I said. There are ways “around it”
And I think that describes the problem pretty well

About vampyr

Zane has lifeleech against all frozen enemies + instant regen when he freezes

Amara got 20%! lifeleech with all elements

Do you think, a well balanced splash life leech would be op^^

#10

You said it.

Did you try the Band of Sitorak shield yet?

In every single one of these posts you’ve made, (and there are more than a few) you demonstrate a complete reluctance to try anything different.

You say you don’t care about damage, and just want synergy (what do you actually mean by synergy?) and survivability.

Have you stopped to consider the best way not to die, is to kill everything else first?

Anyway, see my above advice about the build guides.

Hope you’re enjoying the new patch and dlc.

3 Likes
#11

Hey, Lolli. Try this build. Get an anarchy shotty from new dlc. Go find a green monster with click and rpms only, if possible. Spec to short fuse with 3 points Deadlines, 5 points in stainless steel bear and points in Vampyr.

Green tree get as few mag buffs as possible. Get 5 in rpms. One in specialist bear. Do whatever you want with any leftover points. Exploding bullet armament.

Make sure you haven’t reloaded before you get into Bear. But try a full ride in Bear, then run with the Anarchy. Tediore throws count as grenades. Think of the exploding bullets as an extra gun and ammo and armor.

See what it’s like. If you get splash and aoe rolls on com and artifact, even better. Bear is sustain.

1 Like
#12

Here’s the thing, Vampyr isn’t even “life leech” it’s “+HP% on hit”. Let’s say you have 10k HP and do 50k DMG, +20% HP on hit would be equal to 4% lifesteal (and it wouldn’t scale up for Bloodletter + Deathless builds which are based on shields instead of HP). This would already be more than “well balanced” if you compare it to similar skills from other characters. There’s really no reason why Vampyr should be restricted to grenades and IB given the (comparatively) low HP reg and that “splash damage” isn’t any less of a restriction than stuff like “elemental damage”.

1 Like
#13

I know what I’m posting
And I’m aware that I post I a lot of moze threads, using the same build over that period of time (I tried out some other combinations in that time and didn’t like them)
It’s just that “try this, it works better”
Is not my goal here
Synergy means, that things are working together
The opposite of synergy f.e. is SoR and TD
Ik, you don’t have to run a 1 HP build when you play a red moze. You are just encouraged to do it by 90% of her skills in this tree. And then the capstone doesn’t work. No synergy.

And maybe my problem is just

I don’t want to play Titan fall
And maybe, moze is actually just built to survive the few seconds until she can sit in her vehicle again
In this case I am actually playing around the way they intended for the character

#14

Only one skill in the red tree benefits from a deathless damage wise, that’s desperate measures and you can build your shields just as high with Phalanx Doctrine.

Try using the capstone without a deathless.
Find a bloodletter with regen and try a last stand relic instead. It does work, just not with a deathless.

Either way, everyone wants Force Feedback changed and this topic has been covered in at least 20 different threads. Moze’s other skills are just fine, even if they don’t work exactly the way you want them to.
We’re treading well worn ground here.

2 Likes
#15

Stop. Seriously. You keep saying this and all I hear is “I don’t wanna use the action skill because it reminds me of some other game, but then I’m gonna complain that playing half a character doesn’t feel like I’m playing a full character”

A character’s action skill is a big part of who they are and how they’re designed. You want them to make it more to your liking, but that’s not what they made. I’ve never played Titan Fall. I love Moze. I love Bear. I’m finally getting a single build together where I have both in very good balance. But for the love of all that is Bear, stop saying Titan Fall.

3 Likes
#16

Don’t get me wrong, i want to use her action skill, really.
But i want to summon IB because after all this is a game where you want to run around and shoot with your guns :stuck_out_tongue:
Indeed, an action skills is a big part of a character identity and Moze’s action skills shows that they didnt give her as much identity as other VH’s considering that she can do one single thing. Sit in there. Thats it. IF you want to change that. Use a class mod. And there comes the band-aid problem.

You can have stuff with moze that she is missing. When you are using class mods.
Need lifesteal? Use a class mod. Want to play with your action skill? Use a class mod. Want to actively regenerate your shields? Use a class mod.
All those things should be in her skilltree already and class mods should be there to enhance and support different playstyles. Not enable them.

yea, damage wise. where we come back to survivability and synergy.
deathless increases your shields by 100% and that is all i have to say about that :smiley:

2 Likes
#17

Well keeping Healthgate available and using Tenacious Defense is greater suruviability in many cases then 100% more shield.

3 Likes
#18

thats true
and that makes the whole idea of deathless and all of moze’s shield increasing buffs so sad xD
its just lacking synergy XD

zane is simple: “i wanna run as fast as possible and freeze enemies as solid as possible” -> works
amara: “i wanna deal as much elemental damage as possible” -> works
moze: “i wanna have have as large shields as possible” -> doesn’t work :smiley:

now you might think that i am thinking too simple and its good to think complicated in a character building game
but pushing things to the maximum is satisfying as you can see with zane

#19

that is definitely not the focus of moze. thats what you want the focus to be. only one tree works towards that focus, rather than the whole kit.

if anything, moze’s focus is “i wanna fire things fast for a long time and blow ■■■■ up.” all 3 trees work towards that pretty cohesively.

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#20

yea, its 1 tree and the capstone of this tree isnt supporting this idea xD