TL;DR – After suggesting the idea in another thread and a few requesting I do it, I made this thread so that we can put our heads together and try to reach an agreement on what Gearbox should do about future class mods for Moze. Submit your own ideas, we’ll discuss them with positive feedback and constructive criticism, and try to help mould those ideas into class mods that are not only intuitive for Moze but also provide something different that her current range of legendary class mods do not. Who knows, maybe we’ll get lucky and Gearbox will listen so that our girl has a brighter future ahead when more content releases!
I can’t speak for every Moze main or fan out there, but I will say that myself and a few others are fed up to be frank. Fed up with Gearbox’s continued insistence on shafting our gal Moze when it comes to design choices involving her. There have been numerous threads and discussions about several areas in which the developers aren’t doing right by her and to go into all of them would result in the OP of this thread being lengthier than your average novel!
For now though, this thread is solely focusing on class mods. Why them specifically? You can briefly skim your way through this thread here and see for yourself. Hell, you only really need to look at the screenshot to see what’s wrong! But here’s a summary nonetheless:
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The new Sapper class mod has the same activation clause as the Green Monster class mod from the Moxxi DLC, and also copies having Matched Set. They’ve literally recycled almost half of the GM and re-branded it as a ‘new’ class mod.
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The special effect is life steal which is something Moze does need but in her skill trees, not in something that makes her survivability even more gear-dependent than it already is.
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The maximum you can get up to is 12% life steal. With the Green Monster, it took something in the region of 12 or more seconds to get up to 100% bonus corrosive damage. Whether or not it’s the same amount of time required, this infinitely pales in comparison to Amara’s Sustainment, Zane’s Salvation and the 15% life steal after ASE anointment.
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Unlike the Green Monster, there’s no sign of any bonuses that boost direct DPS. For a vault hunter who is deemed by many to be the weakest of the crew, this class mod asks Moze for too great a sacrifice in DPS to merit such conditional sustain.
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For any Moze players who like to play with 1 hp, the life steal does nothing for them. After all, you can’t wear the Sapper and the Bloodletter class mods at the same time!
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If the activation clause is a carbon-copy of the Green Monster class mod, then the life steal won’t apply to Iron Bear.
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To add insult to injury, this is locked behind the new DLC. Even if you think the idea of a recycled class mod is a good one, you have to pay for the new content just to be able to equip it when you (may) have already paid for its superior predecessor in the Moxxi DLC.
Maybe they were just lazy. Maybe they’re running out of ideas. Or maybe there’s some running inside joke among the devs to go out of their way and treat Moze like utter crap. Whatever the reason may be, it just feels like Gearbox have lost their way where our resident bear trooper is concerned. So I’m starting this thread to brainstorm some ideas for future legendary class mods.
To be clear, this is NOT about guessing what the next class mod or two will be. This thread is about pooling ideas together and establishing a coherent consensus between ourselves as Moze mains and veterans, in identifying what her current class mods do and/or don’t do for her, and proposing ideas for future class mods so that in the rare event that Gearbox actually pay attention to the forums and this thread, at least they can’t claim ignorance when we offered our input.
For this, I think we should be methodical about exchanging our ideas and assemble them together piece-by-piece. I’m sure we all have super-specific ideas in our heads about what class mods we would like to see or what we expect to come true in the future. But that’s a lot less likely to happen if we’re just spitballing preconceived hypothetical packages in their entirety without an ounce of moderation and discourse to help shape and mould them into something tangible, something that might actually have a chance of seeing the light of day. So to start off, I will list some general things about the special effects in Moze’s legendary class mods, what they do, what they don’t do and what future class mods could do or offer that the current range cannot.
SPECIAL EFFECTS
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Moze is already the weakest vault hunter – the last thing she needs from a class mod is trying to conform to convoluted or time-consuming conditions in order to unlock more DPS and/or sustain. So whatever special effects we think of, let’s refrain from anything that is comparable to Iron Bear’s cooldown duration in terms of time spent trying to maximise.
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In light of the screenshot showcasing the Sapper class mod, we should aim to include at least one significant DPS-boosting skill in whatever mod(s) we reach a consensus on, if not something in the mod’s special effect that boosts Moze’s DPS considerably.
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Moze may well have an affinity for all things that inflict splash damage, but that doesn’t necessarily mean she can’t have a special effect in a class mod where dealing basic gun damage also provides some type of benefit.
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A few have suggested in the past that Moze should have a class mod where inflicting gun damage has a % chance of triggering her kill skills. The only issue with this is that there are just three kill skills – Grizzled, Drowning in Brass and Phalanx Doctrine. Zane has way more kill skills to put to use with Seein’ Dead and Fl4k has a ton of Hunter Skills which are boosted by both the Bounty Hunter and Cosmic Stalker class mods.
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One thing the Bloodletter, the Green Monster (except for its hidden glitch) and we assume the new Sapper class mod are all guilty of, are providing special effects that are of no benefit to Iron Bear whatsoever. Bear is a massive part of Moze’s identity as both a character in the lore and in her gameplay – no special effects that we brainstorm should neglect him.
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I’m not against ideas for Iron Bear class mods, but I am of the personal opinion that Gearbox should buff the Raging Bear class mod. If Zane can juggle two action skills at once indefinitely, what harm is there in being able to do the same in Bear’s cockpit when he’s not as strong as Moze on foot? Feel free to mention special effects for Iron Bear. Even better if they apply to both him and Moze.
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What we’re aiming for are special effects that are enticing yet don’t overshoot the mark so much that Moze has a blatant Spiritual Driver/Seein’ Dead class mod of her own. Barring one or two exceptions, Fl4k has an overall great range of legendary class mods to choose from without one being the undisputed COM to bend all others to its will. Any ideas we discuss should be with the aim of trying to get our girl to enjoy a similar range and choice.
Try to keep all of the above points in mind when thinking of special effects. Try to keep it simple yet also make it something that will foster great synergy with bonus skills that make sense in conjunction with the class mod’s special effect. Speaking of bonus skills, I’m now going to mention them and give my own verdict on whether or not they should be included in the legendary class mods.
These are just my opinions on them as prospective bonus skills for class mods, nothing more. Obviously I will not mention the capstones because they are not bonus skills for class mods and also, I’m talking about the skills as they currently are; I’m not making any assumptions about them being changed in the future, nor am I going to make specific suggestions of such nature because it’s a completely different topic.
SKILL TREES
Cloud of Lead – I have mixed feelings about this as a bonus skill. It’s not really worth anything beyond 5/5 investment because the free bullet caps at every fourth shot, but you can save up to 5 points on it and put them into Matched Set if you wanted to progress down the BM tree. It currently only features in the Rocketeer COM. At best, it’s a niche bonus skill for any class mod it graces now or in the future. Unless there was a special effect that profited immensely from CoL, I would not be inclined to put it in any future class mods myself.
Dakka Bear – Disregard. It’s a tier 1 skill that only costs a single point. Don’t get me wrong, the skill itself can produce fun if not gimmicky moments especially in sessions with friends. But it’s a totally unnecessary bonus skill that would waste valuable space in any class mod.
Matched Set – This features in the new legendary class mod which is a BM-style mod, and the non-unique Lemniscate COM. This skill does not need to appear in another legendary class mod any time soon. Arguably it doesn’t really need to appear ever again seeing as it’s a tier 1 skill and The Iron Bank has also appeared in enough class mods representing additional mag size.
Stoke the Embers – It’s a good bonus skill to have, best used in conjunction with any anointed gear that deals 125% bonus incendiary damage. It currently only features in the Raging Bear and the non-legendary Firewalker class mod. Although it’s a decent DPS skill, it’s a niche-DPS skill at that.
Redistribution – This features on FOUR different class mods already! I’m such an advocate of the added DPS and QoL improvement that 2/1 Redistribution grants, that I wouldn’t complain if another legendary class mod in the future got it. But I’m speaking purely on personal preference and emotion there which is not the best way to decide such matters. As much as I love the skill, it’s got enough coverage already just through Blast Master and Mind Sweeper alone.
Scrappy – It’s one of those weird skills where one point suffices most of the time. No legendary class mod features it, but it’s difficult to see what benefits, if any, having Scrappy as a bonus skill would grant to the user or have such synergy with the class mod’s special effect that it’s a game-changing transformation for Moze.
Rushin’ Offensive – Disregard. There’s nothing about this skill that would make sense if you had 2/1 investment in it.
Scorching RPMs – This is definitely one of the significant DPS skills that should be considered. It only features on the Green Monster and the Marksman class mods. But it’s so effective for Moze, Iron Bear and Short Fuse that it merits occupying a second legendary class mod for sure!
The Iron Bank – Same as Matched Set except it’s appeared on the last two consecutive legendary class mods. This skill has received more than enough exposure than it deserves.
Specialist Bear – I’m amazed that as of the time of writing this, there are ZERO class mods in the game that host this single-pointer! It occupies its own slot in Iron Bear’s damage formula so it’s multiplicative with every other type of damage boost. Even Auto Bear can make use of this skill. Imagine 2/1 investment for a multiplicative increase of 50% damage! This definitely should be a bonus skill in consideration for a Bear-focused class mod.
Some for the Road – An amazing single-point skill. It features on two non-legendary class mods and I feel as though it does merit a place in a legendary class mod. However, 2/1 investment in this only gives you +6 seconds instead of +10 which is a bit disappointing. As a bonus skill, it would best serve as something that saves you from spending as many as 21 points in the BM skill tree.
Click, Click… - I’m on the fence about this skill. In isolation, it’s not the best DPS skill you can get. However as a bonus skill, it usually appears in the same class mods as The Iron Bank which is counter-intuitive in terms of getting the most out of this tier 5 skill, and the fact that it’s tier 5 means you’ve got the option of not having to go that far down the BM tree if you’re looking to just use the bonus points instead. Also, the Green Monster bugs this skill out and only ever gives it +1 bonus point maximum when it should be able to boost it up to +3. Without mag size-increasing skills in the same class mod, it might serve better in a niche-DPS class mod that has synergy with it.
Fire in the Skag Den – The bonus DPS from this skill is so pitiful, I don’t understand why it features on as many as three class mods, two of which are legendaries. Please, never again, Gearbox. Just disregard this skill entirely.
Deadlines – It features in three class mods but only one legendary one which is the Raging Bear. Unless any Bear-focused class mod in the future has a special effect where that by itself is enough to allow Moze to pilot Bear indefinitely, then this absolutely should be one of the bonus skills that features in another legendary Bear class mod.
Grizzled – This definitely deserves to feature in another legendary class mod besides just the Bear Trooper which is underwhelming. In a way, it benefits both Moze and Bear. This as a prospective bonus skill in a viable COM has some hidden, untapped potential I feel.
Means of Destruction – If I were to mention one positive about the new Sapper class mod, it’s that MoD finally has a place in a legendary COM at last. But its legendary initiation is ill-timed and so I feel it deserves another chance in a more intuitive and better-designed class mod.
Torgue Cross-Promotion – Like Redistribution, it occupies four different class mods. It’s arguably Moze’s absolute worst skill across all her trees and it’s got slots on two legendaries already. My head is saying this should never appear on another class mod ever again. However, playing devil’s advocate for the sake of such an atrocious skill, I think it would be awesome if one of the features of a future class mod’s special bonuses made it so that both Moze and Iron Bear are immune to self-inflicted splash damage. That would suddenly vindicate TCP both as a bonus skill and as a choice to spend your own points on.
Stainless Steel Bear – It already appears on the only two Bear-focused legendary class mods, and has a place in the non-legendary Tank Gal COM as well. I’m of the opinion that we shouldn’t see this skill in another legendary COM again. The DPS is not only inferior to Scorching RPMS but it also can’t be utilised by Moze on foot, unless you run Short Fuse but then SRPMs still provides a bigger boost for that too. As for the fuel, Deadlines is more important in that domain.
Pull the Holy Pin – It’s only on one legendary class mod as of this moment. Luckily for the skill itself, it happens to occupy a slot on Moze’s current meta class mod. Having said that, I think it would be great to see this skill appear on another class mod in the future, especially one where it focuses heavily on grenade damage and utility, to the point where merely tossing grenades is enough to clear most if not all content you come across.
Auto Bear – This doesn’t feature as a bonus skill on any class mod so it’s difficult to say how this would function. In my mind, I’m picturing Auto Bear as being up for 30 seconds with 2/1 investment which would be brilliant, especially as the best way to utilise Iron Bear is to have him function as a stationary AI turret for supplemental DPS in conjunction with Moze’s own DPS on foot. If that ends up being an actual thing, then that would be amazing. But even if it ends up disappointing like 2/1 Some for the Road, you could still have a class mod that allows you to spec into Auto Bear while you focus on a BM/SoR build.
Vampyr – It’s already in three class mods, the only legendary one happens to be the Blast Master. I for one am not opposed to seeing Vampyr reappear in another legendary COM in the future considering its effectiveness and relative importance to Moze, but she truly needs other forms of sustain injected into her skill trees rather than being reliant on specific legendary loot dropping.
Why Can’t I Carry All the Grenades? - As long as grenade regen is a thing, be it points in MoD or wearing a Big Boom Blaster shield, there’s virtually no point in wasting your skill points on this. Unless there’s a special effect where increasing grenade carry capacity has some bonkers bonus attached to it, this shouldn’t really ever appear on a legendary mod, period.
To the Last – Disregard. There are no numbers to boost here.
Explosive Punctuation – This cooldown skill is easily made redundant when other means of cooldown reduction are in effect. It only appears on the Bear Trooper COM and it should stay there for good; it should not feature in any other legendary mod for Moze.
Selfless Vengeance – It doesn’t appear on any legendary class mods and Gearbox should keep it that way. If people want bonus fire damage that badly, then Stoke the Embers and/or Experimental Munitions are better bonus skills to pick, full stop.
Security Bear – Would 2/1 investment in this skill halve the bubble shield recharge delay to 2.5 seconds? The skill itself is not always consistent with its activation according to mixed reports so I would personally refrain from having this feature as a bonus skill for the foreseeable future.
Armored Infantry – For a tier 1 skill, it’s not bad but I’m not sure I would agree with it being a good pick as a bonus skill in a legendary COM. The bonus weapon damage is pretty basic yet not that plentiful, and the damage reduction accumulates in diminishing returns – you wouldn’t be getting as much value as you think from having 10/5 in this skill.
Drowning in Brass – How the hell has this DPS skill not graced a single legendary class mod yet?! Eight legendaries and not a single one plays host to DiB. If this were to be a bonus skill on a class mod where you can activate kill skills and perhaps other skills without having to land kills, it would be mega for Moze and Iron Bear both. All your friends in coop sessions would also enjoy it!
Thin Red Line – It makes sense as a bonus skill in the Bloodletter COM for certain. I’m not so sure about other special effects that would make use of it, but 2/3 TRL makes Vampyr more effective and you don’t have to throw as many points at the latter either. For that reason alone, I’m not against seeing TRL reappear in another legendary class mod, so long as it’s an intuitive pick with the class mod’s special bonus.
Vladof Ingenuity – To be fair to this skill, the extra capacity is noticeable on high-capacity Hyperion shields, so it’s good with the Re-Charger, the Stop Gap and the Transformer. But having super-high shield capacity isn’t always a guaranteed life-saver in end game, and the shock damage resistance accumulates in vastly diminishing returns. It’s not awful but I don’t think it merits a place in a legendary class mod either.
Full Can of Whoop-Ass – Admittedly it’s a niche skill but if you’re playing a strict Auto Bear build, then you’ve gotta love this skill’s ability to constantly recharge your shield despite any damage you sustain. If there were to be a legendary class mod in the future that allows you to get 2/1 in this skill and give you +50% recharge rate, this would be amazing for wearing a Re-Charger or a Stop Gap.
Experimental Munitions – I do find it weird that only a non-legendary class mod hosts this skill. The damage isn’t amazing but when you consider it only costs one skill point and even has synergy with skills like Stoke the Embers and Pull the Holy Pin, being able to wear a legendary class mod and go 2/1 in this skill would be quite nice.
Behind the Iron Curtain – This skill is so bad and does very little to boost shield recharge-efficiency in the face of a skill tree which offers ever-increasing shield capacity, that there’s no justification I can think of for having this as a bonus skill in any legendary class mod.
Desperate Measures – This skill has its true home with the Bloodletter class mod. Unless another future class mod offers a major benefit for playing 1 hp Moze, I don’t think it’s a good idea for it to appear in another legendary class mod.
Phalanx Doctrine – Again, another skill that makes sense in the Bloodletter COM but also have a hard time picturing it in another legendary class mod. If there were to be a class mod where Moze has a % chance to activate her kill skills when inflicting gun damage or whatever, then Phalanx Doctrine should NOT be a bonus skill for that class mod. Drowning in Brass, yes. Phalanx Doctrine, no. Why? When you activate kill skills without needing kills to do so, the former has a stack limit of 3, whereas the latter has no stack limit. You could easily accrue something absurd like 50+ stacks with high fire rate weapons, and 10/5 PD on top of that? You’re talking about stacking up in the region of +1,000% gun damage or more!
Force Feedback – Disregard. Like I said, I’m not going to make any specific suggestions as to how they should go about it because it’s a change of topic, but Gearbox truly needs to go back to the drawing board with this skill.
So I’ve explained my take on special effects and the skills as bonus picks for class mods. Again, I’m just expressing my opinions on them, I’m not preaching everything here as if it’s gospel. If you think there’s something about Moze’s special effects that are lacking that I haven’t mentioned, or if you can offer different takes on certain skills as bonuses featured in class mods, then do speak up. Anything I’ve missed or any other viewpoints which shed more light on special effects or bonus skills, I can add to my own notes.
WHAT TO DO
- Propose an idea for a legendary class mod. It doesn’t have to be a complete package if you’re unsure about certain aspects – it can be just the special effect and one or two skills, or three skills you feel absolutely should be bonuses in future legendary class mods. If you want, feel free to propose ideas for class mods that have not been seen before – for example, you could propose a legendary class mod where the bonus skills consist of two single-pointers and one that maxes out at 3 points.
- Engage in discourse over each proposed class mod idea. Give positive feedback and/or constructive criticism regarding its attributes. We’ll put our minds together to try and create a mod out of that proposed idea that is intuitive and would benefit Moze greatly to the point where as an addition, it would make her have a solid range of legendary class mods to choose from that is comparable to Fl4k’s collection.
- I will compile a list of submitted class mod ideas and place them in the TL;DR section at the top of the OP. Eventually I might make a voting poll for people to choose their two or three favourite picks but in the meantime, you can simply voice your approval for any ideas.
I will provide a few examples of what I mean. These are pure examples, they’re not my official submissions to this thread just for the record, unless people really want to see them become a thing. Anyway, here they are:
Example #1 – Moze and Iron Bear have a 5% chance to trigger all kill skills while inflicting Weapon Damage. Dealing Splash Damage has an extra 5% chance to trigger all chance-based skills.
Drowning in Brass
Grizzled
Means of Destruction
In this example, I would propose such a class mod and explain that the three bonus skills are ones that are overdue in terms of more exposure via legendary class mods. You’ve got DiB for DPS, Grizzled for extra cooldown and MoD for more ammo and grenade regen. Whether the bonus skills are good, right or a broken combination for whatever reason, is one of the things we’d discuss.
We’d also talk about whether the COM’s special bonus is good, bad, overpowered or underpowered, etc. Is 5% chance too much, too little or just right considering Moze only has a maximum of 3 kill skills? What about the extra 5% chance for splash damage skills? How would this apply to Pull the Holy Pin – does it still only count for grenades, or does this class mod’s special effect allow it to proc with any form of splash damage and turn it into the splash equivalent of Fl4k’s Megavore? And should the extra 5% chance apply to Short Fuse?
Example #2 - Moze and Iron Bear are immune to self-inflicted Splash Damage. They inflict 20% bonus cryo damage when dealing Weapon Damage and 20% bonus radiation damage when dealing Splash Damage. Dealing Critical Damage doubles the elemental bonuses.
Torgue Cross-Promotion
Scorching RPMs
Experimental Munitions
Again, are the special bonuses too much, too little or enough? Are the skills a good combination? Being immune to splash damage allows Moze to play within close-quarters without sacrificing one of her main strengths and even gives her the chance to make more consistent use of elemental projector relics for more damage.
Example #3 – While piloting Iron Bear, 40% of damage sustained is converted into fuel. While Iron Bear is active, gain 10% life steal based on all damage inflicted upon enemies. Iron Bear can trigger Short Fuse.
Grizzled
Auto Bear
Specialist Bear
Now ideally, I would prefer it if Gearbox did the sensible thing and just edited Short Fuse itself so that it works with Iron Bear without needing a class mod to provide a temporary band-aid. But I’m not making any assumptions that that will happen and so it’s why I mention it as part of this example COM’s special bonuses.
But this class mod example is one that allows the user to go 100% Iron Bear in their builds including fights against bosses. The life steal would work for Bear while piloting him, and both him and Moze during Auto Bear. Even when you have to exit him, you can have him alongside Moze for 30 seconds with 2/1 Auto Bear and 2/1 Specialist Bear plus the ability for Bear to trigger Short Fuse should suffice in terms of DPS boosts. But as a class mod, is this a good idea, is it not enough or is it game-breaking and should be toned down a notch or two?
If you’ve got the gist of it, go ahead and submit your own ideas!
