Seein' Red Button Capstone and CCC

Borderlands 3 Zane the Operative
#1

From what I can tell, triggering CCC doesn’t count as an activation of your action skills. I get why a refresh wouldn’t count; however, with the anointments and capstone that require activation, I think this should change. It would make playing cryo zane slightly less annoying. Would this make Zane OP? No, I think it’d just make him more fun and slightly less annoying. Zane was my first character, and is my favorite personality wise; however, playing Moze and Fl4k makes the game feel like easymode. +1 for not using the word viability until now?

#2

Calm, Cool, Collected is just another skill. Not an Action skill.
Why would that specific one trigger AS activation and not any other random skill?

#3

Because it would make that specific combo viable during boss battles. Which would be nice, wouldn’t it?

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#4

Because of the way it interacts with action skills. Refreshing action skills could be seen as reactivating active skills passively to give you a new full duration. More of a what if scenario that I think would make cryo Zane feel way better. Dislike that all of the action skills start/end anointments are pretty ineffective in the ccc builds as well.

#5

Yeah… I like unicorns and rainbows too. :sunglasses:

Yet again. Why should it refresh that specific skill and not any other? On Zane or any other VH?
I get your point. It would be a great help for your build.
Wouldn’t make any sense though.

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#6

What other reasons do you need?
It would be synergistic and far from being overpowered.

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#7

I guess I don’t get where the hang up in logic is to you. New duration could be seen as a reactivation. This would make zane better against bosses/ tough enemies with infrequent adds. Not saying this is the only way to interpret, just saying this interpretation would help cryo Zane be more fun. As far as I know, this wouldn’t really have any unintended consequences as the only thing seein’ red does is retrigger your kill skills and allow the use of anointments to recharge grenades and regenerate shields.

#8

:thinking: :hushed:
Have a good day.

#9

Was just referring to your statement that my proposed change wouldn’t make any sense there, not attempting to offend. Is there any specific reason why you think this wouldn’t be good?

#10

Of course it would be good. Not questioning that.
But it’s like asking for… unicorns and rainbows. (No offense taken btw.)

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#11

Bruh. No other vault hunter can refresh their action skill like CCC does. It’s not just a random skill. It very specifically interacts with your action skill in a way that not only doesn’t synergize at all with seein red; it hinders it from being a viable way of specing your points. None of the other VHs have a capstone that is quite literally anti-synergistic with their other skills (CCC, good misfortune, and borrowed time btw).

Comparing it to asking for unicorns and rainbows is a bit ridiculous, considering time and time again the devs have said their goal is to allow as many viable builds as possible. The thing that actually doesn’t make sense is the fact that Zane has a capstone which completely works against multiple of his other skills, even in the same tree.

Does Zane need action skill refresh (via CCC, or even techspert com) to proc seein red? No, surely not. But would it promote the build diversity they want? Absolutely. It wouldn’t be OP, but it would definitely help Zane’s big problem of anti-synergistic skills. Which, again, isn’t really a problem that other vault hunters have.

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#12

Hmmm, I’d argue that most of his skills clash with one another. Uptoo the point it seems like purposeful design.

I could list all the contradictions in Zane’s trees, but if you main him, you know what I’m talking about.

I would love to see CCC synergize with Seein Red, but let’s not pretend that’s the only anti synergy skill.

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#13

Yeah, sure. I don’t disagree. Just explaining this specific one because it’s the thread topic.

Purposeful or not, it seems like poor design. Which we can help them improve, with constructive suggestions.

#14

Okay, so. Capstone aren’t necessarily supposed to be “the most powerful skill available” they just have a solid theme tie to the rest of the tree and change how the game is played…almost entirely. They introduce a new mechanic.

Moze’s Tenacious Defense doesn’t synergize with a Super Low HP build because it won’t activate if you get hit below health gate.

The thing with the skills is you have to choose what you want. If you’re running a CCC build, you don’t want Seeing Red.

Seeing Red is a skill designed to get Zane into top performance before he kills things, so he can prolong the kill skills with actual kills. There’s a skill in that tree that extends the AS Duration if you make kills. Your hope is to See Red. Then just keep killing til it’s over.

I’m not even sure how you think your idea would help in bosses with no adds…because then there’s no adds to freeze…so there’s no CCC to proc anyway? If there’s something to freeze, there’s something to kill, which means you don’t even need Seeing Red because you’ve killed something.

And yeah, Action Skill End anointments aren’t a reliable source of anything on Zane. Lol.

#15

CCC can be procced by rapidly stacking brainfreeze on bosses

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#16

Adding a little blurb to CCC saying something like “Each duration reset acts as action skill start/end” could certainly be doable. It would also make many builds that use CCC get some more synergy. But considering that this is already one of the most common playstyles out there for Zane, I think other parts of his kit need to be considered for changes first so more playstyles become available.

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#17

The more I think about this the more I think it’s the only way I’ll go back to ccc build. Especially when playing co-op. Unless your group actively let’s you finish off mobs, might as well not even take kill skills. My uptime for kill skills in my last session was under 50%. Probably need to git gud but shield / clone for seein’ red are more fun.

#18

I run a CCC/seeing red build. Activating the barrier activates all my kill skills which then let’s me finish off mobs/bosses quickly. If I fail to control the mob I can run under cover refresh then activate the barrier again. I ran a nova clone and a facepuncher clone builds, but I am simply better when I am only juggling the barrier. Also I noticed my dps seemed more consistent.

I get the feeling Zane was the result of a huge brainstorm session where everyone threw in all these cool ideas, but no one bothered to trim them down to a coherent strategy. If they would either remove the shield requirements from the barrier skill tree or the action skill requirement of the clone tree it would increase passives and make it a little easier to build around his skills. Right now he is a mess, aside from the CCC builds and the other two i mentioned above that I have seen in this forum. He is the most defensive character in bl3 even though it may take a little longer to get through content. Now that the particle effects of the barrier and the rocket spamming mobs are a bit toned down, it’s easier to aim and he’s not that far off other vh’s. If GBX would just sharpen the focus a bit he could be as good as the other vault hunters.

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