Dear Gearbox... On the nerf to GiTM

Guerrillas in the Mist was nerfed pretty badly in the most recent patch - it lost abit of crit, but more importantly, it lost almost half of its total duration. While I can definitely see the intention behind the nerf, it hasn’t achieved what it has intended and has instead really hurt Fl4k as a class.

If I am to understand correctly, GiTM was nerfed because when paired with stuff like the KC/QC (RIP), Torgue shotties or Lyuda, it absolutely melted bosses. And hence it was nerfed for being a little overpowered. As a brief aside - Fl4k’s ungodly bossing ability was a myth propagated by the vast number of players who used him in the game’s early life cycle. Amara and Moze have shown themselves to be at least his equal - if not superior, in this respect. And GiTM was overrated as Fl4k’s ‘boss-killing’ ability as players rarely exploited the auto-crit ability and went for crits anyway to maximize their dps anyway. And lastly, the bosses currently in the game are simply not healthy enough to make any conclusion about a class’s bossing capability - even Zane can shred Graveward in under 1s because he isn’t a Raid boss.

But that’s not the main point of this post. The main point is that the GiTM nerf hasn’t achieved what it has intended, but instead really hurt Fl4k where he was already pretty mediocre at. While the crit nerf has definitely toned down his DPS, Fl4k can still totally obliterate every single boss in the entire game even within the nerfed duration. This is because, like Amara and Moze, Fl4k has a ton of inherent dps, and the current boss roster in the game just isn’t enough to challenge them with optimal loadouts.

On the other hand, Fl4k has never been very good at mobbing. He was designed to be a glass cannon - lots of dps, but not much survivability. In theory F4de Away was the solution to this - weave in and out of combat, exploiting invisibility to make-up for your inherent squishiness (much like Zer0 in BL2). However, F4de Away was paired with a crazy long cooldown of 45s, presumably to balance it to Rakk Attack and Gamma Burst. But this meant Fl4ks weren’t able to integrate FA very smoothly into combat, which is why Amara and Moze always stomped him in mobbing and arena situations.

But at least with GiTM being from 8 - 11.5s, you were able to kill maybe 30% of enemies within F4de Away if you had a good loadout that was optimised with Head Count. But now that number has drastically reduced since its duration is now 5s. One cannot look ast this mathematically, 5s duration is actually significantly worse than 8s for mobbing because you have to contend with alot of other things in mobbing compared to bossing, namely looking for enemies, reloading, wonky AI etc. Now, unless you are exploiting certain weapons like the Crossroad or Butcher, you are gonna be spend 80% of your time outside F4de Away, and kill 1-2 enemies in one duration. Effectively, Fl4k has become a Krieg, Moze or Brick, having no action skill if using a gun build. Except Fl4k isn’t built like those classes - he isn’t a self-sufficient, DPS invincible tank. He is built to be dependent on his Action Skill, whether Gamma Burst, Rakk Attack or F4de Away (more on that later). Majority of Fl4k players now find him extremely tedious to play on TVHM M3 without optimised loadouts, and this just shouldn’t be the case.

Even with the nerf to GiTM’s duration and crit, players will stick to GiTM instead of base F4de Away. Why? Because base F4de Away is inherently flawed. You have 3 supposedly ‘high-power’ shots in 15s. Except there are a few issues. Firstly, that 15s is disengenuous, as well, you only have 3 shots. Which means that you are only gonna be able to kill at best 3, more likely 1-2 enemies in that duration. With the nerfed duration, GiTM is only capable of the same - which means base F4de Away must be better right? This is not the case because the weapons that excel in base F4de Away are the same weapons which tend to synergise terribly with Head Count. Conversely, the high fire rate shotties and smgs which have great synergy with GiTM also have great synergy with Head Count, allowing you to shave off at least 1/3rd of its cooldown - and at least try and incorporate FA into your playstyle, even though the nerf makes this very difficult now.

Instead of nerfing GiTM’s duration to make base F4de Away competitive, what Gearbox should have done is give base F4de Away a cooldown refund for ending the action skill early, much like Decepti0n, Digi-Jacks, Axton’s Turret etc. And given it a augment or classmod that favored playstyles which COULD end duration early (like maybe your last shot or last 3 shots does bonus damage or something). That way base F4de Away could be truly competitive with GiTM.

I am completely okay with the nerf to GiTM’s crit, but the nerf to duration has really made him not just alot less effective, but honestly alot less fun. In view of this, I have several suggestions.

  1. Give Base F4de Away a cooldown refund mechanism. And when the next roll of Legendary Class Mods come along, give a special effect which favors this high single-shot playstyle.

  2. Keep the crit nerf to GiTM, but do something to make it blend more seamlessly into mobbing situations. This can be done by any of the following:
    A) Bring the duration back to 8s.
    B) Keep the nerfed duration of 6s, but half the cooldown to 20-25s.
    C) Significantly buff Eager to Impress and Head Count - though I think this is a less desirable suggestion because it would be very broken with Rakk Attack.
    D) Significantly buff Persistance Hunter to 33% per level. I actually quite like this suggestion because it forces Fl4k players to spec into Persistance Hunter - but unlike right now where it barely makes GiTM viable, they feel rewarded for it.

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Fl4k’s auto-crits stack with weakspots. So it, rather its ability to deliver Unblinking Eye, is still being exploited.

Killing 2 badasses with relative safety, which Guerillas can still do, is pretty good compared to most action skills.

You have 4 weapon slots. You don’t need every weapon slot to synergize with both Fade Away and Head Count. Bring a good mobbing gun for lots of crit, and a high power single shot gun for Fade Away. Base Fade Away gives plenty of time to use grenades to soften enemy shields, or just prestrip them and use the time to heal. Yes this takes longer, but that’s the whole point of a nerf.

People are staying with it because it is familiar and because they don’t know what to do with Rakks or base Fade Away. This is a significant change in the meta of how Fl4k works that will take time for people to adjust to. People were theory crafting the perfect Guerilla builds for weeks before the game out and only a few were looking at what he could accomplish without it because Guerillas was such a better option.

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Killing 2 badasses with relative safety, which Guerillas can still do, is pretty good compared to most action skills.

Assuming you have it active when the badasses are there. Even pre-nerf it was very common to not have F4de Away for badass enemies because of the ungodly cooldown. And you are kinda proving my point. Fl4k isn’t Moze, Krieg or Brick, I shouldn’t be reserving my action skill for badasses - it should be something I can incorporate into my playstyle - like every other action skill in Borderlands history.

You have 4 weapon slots. You don’t need every weapon slot to synergize with both Fade Away and Head Count. Bring a good mobbing gun for lots of crit, and a high power single shot gun for Fade Away. Base Fade Away gives plenty of time to use grenades to soften enemy shields, or just prestrip them and use the time to heal. Yes this takes longer, but that’s the whole point of a nerf.

But if I wanted to snipe, I would snipe. If I wanted to roll with SMGs and shotguns, that’s what I would do. Mayhem encourages such a playstyle, by nerfing certain classes of weapons and buffing others depending on your roll. Likewise, if I wanted to slaughter people with grenades, that’s what I would do (I have a pretty decent idea for a Fl4k grenade build… just have to find the right gear).

And once more you have struck on why F4de Away’s duration shouldn’t have been nerfed. Currently, Amara and Moze can just stampede into an arena with little care for survivability or positioning or having to inanely swap between guns/grenades etc. and absolutely wipe an arena with their insane DPS and survivability. Even pre-nerf, Fl4k couldn’t do anything remotely close to that level. I am not recommending we nerf Amara and Moze to bring them down to Fl4k’s level, that’s just a horrible decision that will ruin the fun for players who enjoy them. My main point is that neither base F4de nor GiTM were broken for mobbing, now both are just very average at M3, and the latter build just feels so much more anemic. If that’s their way of forcing players to use RA and GB, then that’s just not right.

People are staying with it because it is familiar and because they don’t know what to do with Rakks or base Fade Away.

I never specced into GiTM while levelling because I had a misconception regarding the crit nerf (thanks for clearing that up in your post), and used Rakk Attack basically throughout (swapping to FA for the bosses and the occasional anointed). And I can say with confidence, neither build is even vaguely competitive with what Amara and Moze are capable of at endgame. Rakk’s just don’t scale well to Mayhem and are basically glorified anointment and TPW proccers. And I have already stated my issues with base F4de. Guerrillas was the closest thing to a truly strong Fl4k mobbing build

Is it truly wrong for a class to have a mobbing build which is superior to the others? Hellborn Krieg was far better than Melee, Storm Athena was way better than Melee, Digi-Death was much better than Digi-Life. Why? Because, a build specialising in gun-power will always be superior to one that focuses on action skill damage - because that’s the whole point of Borderlands Lootology. But that didn’t stop me from having fun playing those other builds. Sure people are natural minmaxers - and people will naturally tend towards those meta builds, but that doesn’t make those meta builds wrong. Just because Guerrillas is superior to the other 2 action skills doesn’t mean they have to nerf it. If Guerrillas was completely broken for mobbing and making a mockery of the game, maybe there is reason to nerf it, but it plainly wasn’t, which once more begs the question - why?

And the main reason people aren’t exploring other Fl4k builds is not because GiTM is too strong, but because the one alot of people wanted to play, Gamma Burst, is just completely unoptimized at this point. I guarantee you, when the inevitable buff to GB comes along, and assuming they do it well, we are gonna have alot of beastmasters out there.

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Why shouldn’t you? Fl4k’s already a glass cannon. A glass cannon shouldn’t need more dps for mobbing, and dps is the primary purpose of gitm. If you want more general survival/utility pick a different augment or action skill that give you better ratios of use. Choices.
Persistence Hunter + Cooldown bonus on relic brings you up to 20% uptime/downtime on gitm. Head Count and Eager to Impress push it higher. You can incorporate it in to your playstyle if you spec for it. Phasewalk was strictly a positional tool with a 36 second cooldown without building it up, it’s not unprecedented to have a skill that requires investment.

You have this completely backwards. If Mayhem nerfs your single weapon class in to the ground then you’re completely screwed. You need to be adaptable to Mayhem. It encourages variety, not singularity.

I’m not particularly experienced with Amara/Moze yet but isn’t this pretty much what the offensive phase abilities and Iron Bear are used for? Triggering Bonuses?

But it wasn’t just the superior mobbing set up, it was also the superior bossing set up. It was the best for one and infinitely the best for the other. That’s the problem. It’s still the best for bossing but now other augments and AS might do better than mobbing because they provide more recovery or general utility. It’s still an issue, regardless of how many times it has happened in the past. We’re only talking about it now because Gearbox has shown a more active interest in balancing their game.

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Being forced to use a skill or gear you didnt originally want to use or need to use to get to the same baseline of duration or reduction of cooldown so you can have more active skill up time is not a choice. It’s exactly as I said forced. The nerf is not a mayhem modifier to work around. The nerf is a bane to the majority of fl4k players. We dont even have raid bosses yet. They’re nerfing characters based on their ability to kill story bosses? That’s a joke. Also prenerf gitm was not the top of the line mobbing set up it was good but nowhere near amara or moze

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Why shouldn’t you? Fl4k’s already a glass cannon. A glass cannon shouldn’t need more dps for mobbing, and dps is the primary purpose of gitm. If you want more general survival/utility pick a different augment or action skill that give you better ratios of use. Choices.

Except what GiTM provides isn’t DPS - its flexibility and survivability. As you say, the only real DPS buff within GiTM is the meager crit bonus and Unblinking Eye (which seems it works additively rather than multiplicatively to crit, isn’t as significant as I thought it was). If you truly wanted DPS, you would go all out with Rakk Attack and anointments to get 100% upkeep of TPW and those crazy bonuses. And the big problem is none of the other augments are truly great - because base F4de Away needs a slight rework. And they could be great - if they gave base F4de Away a cooldown refund.

Persistence Hunter + Cooldown bonus on relic brings you up to 20% uptime/downtime on gitm. Head Count and Eager to Impress push it higher. You can incorporate it in to your playstyle if you spec for it. Phasewalk was strictly a positional tool with a 36 second cooldown without building it up, it’s not unprecedented to have a skill that requires investment.

All BL1 skills had ridiculous cooldowns - but the cooldown recovery skills were also the strongest in the franchise. Not quite a comparable situation. And I’m pretty sure every single Fl4k player already grabs E2I and HC - its just not enough, thats why there are alot of complaints around the board on Fl4k’s mobbing capability.

You have this completely backwards. If Mayhem nerfs your single weapon class in to the ground then you’re completely screwed. You need to be adaptable to Mayhem. It encourages variety, not singularity.

Gosh, you are completely misunderstanding what I am saying. Yes Mayhem does nerf a class of weapons - but that means it leaves another class not nerfed. Which means if your Mayhem modifiers nerfs SMGs, ARs and Pistols, you are gonna use Snipers and shotties instead. So the option to ‘use SMGs while FA is on cooldown is moot’. Likewise, if your Mayhem modifier nerfs Snipers, you ain’t gonna swap to snipers to take out a badass within base F4de. Which means your recommended playstyle isn’t gonna work.

I’m not particularly experienced with Amara/Moze yet but isn’t this pretty much what the offensive phase abilities and Iron Bear are used for? Triggering Bonuses?

And I’m pretty sure that wasn’t GB intention. In particular Iron Bear, which I’m sure they are gonna buff in a upcoming patch. That said, both Phase Cast and Phase Slam can be built to be extremely powerful (deal 5-10mill dmg) unlike Rakk Attack.

But it wasn’t just the superior mobbing set up, it was also the superior bossing set up. It was the best for one and infinitely the best for the other.

Except it wasn’t ‘infinitely better’. Everyone just assumes it is for the same reason you pointed out just now - everyone was obsessed with GiTM before the game came out, and never experimented with the other AS. You cannot benefit off anointments in FA, which can make Rakk Attack an equal option. And base F4de Away CAN kill every boss/phase in 3 shots. All the nerf has done is made Fl4k much weaker at mobbing as a whole, because that’s where GiTM truly excelled.

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Fade Away provides flexibility, gitm focuses on the dps side. I’m against its damage nerf personally.
They’re additive, but Unblinking Eye is a big additive. So it doesn’t exactly fall off for contribution.

Ohh, okay I see your point now. That particular modifier buff/nerfs ARs and Snipers and then everything else. So when smgs are nerfed bring an AR, when snipers are nerfed bring a high powered shotgun.

Fair enough to that. Looking forward to Amara more now, just at level 40 but 5-10 mill sounds impressive.

I’m a bit skeptical on this one since this is the first time I’ve heard of that. What kind of set up?

On Anointments: The Rakk bonus damage one right? I haven’t tried it yet since I’ve not found it on anything worth giving an inventory space for, just greens. Once its applied, can you swap away or do you need to keep the anointed gun out?

My version of the nerf would’ve let the base duration be, but sets it’s critical bonus to 0%, so that we could “only” get the base critical damage. Additionally I would encourage natural crits in GitM by granting 50% critical damage bonus (additive to the regular bonus of the gun used) when hitting a weak spot.

And last but not least I would change the base Fade Away so that only shots count that actually hit an enemy and in addition to that I would add 100% additive critical damage bonus to natural critical hits to reward skillful play.

“A good hunter waits for the right moment to strike, but when they strike, they kill” that’s how the regular Fade Away should feel like.

Edit: Regarding the Beastmaster builds, yes that’s basically the reason I wanted to play Fl4k in the first place and although I could make it work up to NVHM Mayhem 3, it was just too cumbersome and not worth the level of coordination and permanent focus. If Gearbox decides to rework Gamma Burst and Barbaric Yawp and makes the pet damage respectable that way, then I won’t hesitate to respec on the spot. If I may suggest it: Let Gamma Burst double the base damage of the pet before adding the then 50% radiation damage on top, let it also boost the Gunslinger Jabber and let that just operate as normal, including guns. No one cares that it might be unrealistic that a mutating pet’s gun gets stronger all of a sudden. Barbaric Yawp should just be redone into a basic damage skill. Something that increases the damage output of the pet significantly, like at 5/5 it should give +30% damage with additional +50% while Gamma Burst is active. Let it be barbaric! And I would rework Dominance but only in function, not in form. 1. Give us a signal to show that we currently have an enemy dominated. Just display it like a pet, but with the Whip symbol of Dominance. 2. Let us deal damage to the dominated enemy. 3. This is the big one: A dominated enemy should profit from all offensive pet bonuses! That way we get another damage outlet and not just some aggro relief.

Fade Away provides flexibility, gitm focuses on the dps side. I’m against its damage nerf personally.
They’re additive, but Unblinking Eye is a big additive. So it doesn’t exactly fall off for contribution.

GiTM is not for DPS, because theoretically both Rakk Attack and base F4de provide higher DPS. But GiTM is great for flexibility because you can spray and pray while being invisible for a period of time - and helps alot with survivability. Base F4de is great for survivability too - but because you cannot do as much within the duration it is not quite as flexible (yes you can throw grenades and stuff, but Fl4k isn’t Zane or Moze).

They’re additive, but Unblinking Eye is a big additive. So it doesn’t exactly fall off for contribution.

It is an average of +75% additive crit damage -which is nice, but far inferior to what some of the anointments are capable of.

Ohh, okay I see your point now. That particular modifier buff/nerfs ARs and Snipers and then everything else. So when smgs are nerfed bring an AR, when snipers are nerfed bring a high powered shotgun.

But you have to admit that’s incredibly asinine compared to Moze and Amara being able to use a single weapon without all this weapon swapping. If GB had truly intended Fl4k to use several weapons at once - they would have given him some swap speed buffs like the other 3 VHs. The fact we are even discussing this demonstrates how unoptimised Base F4de is. TVHM M3 isn’t UVHM OP10, players shouldn’t feel stretched to play in such a way.

I’m a bit skeptical on this one since this is the first time I’ve heard of that. What kind of set up?

Any high powered single pellet weapon, Tw0 Fang, DE4DEYE class mod.


On Anointments: The Rakk bonus damage one right? I haven’t tried it yet since I’ve not found it on anything worth giving an inventory space for, just greens. Once its applied, can you swap away or do you need to keep the anointed gun out?

The Rakk bonus damage is nice, but the anointments to look out for are the ones which give +100% weapon damage, +125% damage to badasses and +120% splash damage. IIRC they only apply to the weapon on hand.

What they should have done is made GitM’s duration 5 seconds but kills increase duration by 2 seconds. Effect can stack 3 times.

This would have the same result for bosses as the current nerf, but leave Fade Away some mobbing potential.

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This is a great suggestion.

I agree. Hopefully, somebody from Gearbox reads this.