I’m in the middle of actually testing the maths behind Hot lead, and the results are not what I expected.
Placeholder for now, but here are the broad lines:
Hot lead’s damage is not based on your gun’s base damage, but actually benefits from most gun damage boosts you have.
It seems to take it’s cue on the ignite damage, which comes slightly after the crit: Even though crack shot boosts your base damage, it does nothing for hot lead, while Quick shot, a Tranquility Oz kit and a Sheriff COM do.
Crit boosts however, have no effects on it
it’s utterly useless in a vacuum since the initial damage is very very low and only serves as a “spark” to start the burn DoT. (it’s about 2% of base damage per skill point)
the damage percentage the card states is accurate when calculated over one second. (so, with 5/5 in hot lead, your incendiary damage over one second (3 ticks) will be 25% of your gun damage, without the crit)
it does say “incendiary damage” not “fire damage”
the ignite chances are off the charts (300 out of 300 with only 2 skill points on flesh and 150 on 150 on skield… not saying it’s 100%…but it’s very close to))
I still have a lot of tests to run, and I should spruce this thread up with a few pictures, but this placeholder will do for now. I need to sleep.
So, so far my conclusions are:
Hot lead is MUCH better than I thought in an atmosphere.
But MUCH worse than I thought in a vacuum.
And since it’s damage is done over time, it’s much better against bosses and badasses than mobs (who will probably die well before the DoT has done it’s job.
That may be b/c the crackshot buff ends as soon as the first bullet is fired. As you said the Hot lead damage comes slightly after that. I think all damage buffs increase Hot Lead damage, it is multiplicative of the final gun damage with exceptions like above.
So, does it mean ignite and incendiary (DoT) damage are equal to each other?
Yes, it appears so. this is something I will need to test too. The multiplicative part is why I say that it’s much better than I thought it was.
Almost
To give you an idea, With my test gun, no damage boost and only 2 points into Hot lead, I was getting
14153 body shot damage
2477 ignite damage
and ticks between 1650 and 1800
So the initial damage is barely higher than a single tick
Indeed, I will have to revisit the guide.
Considering that fire ticks for 5 seconds, any flesh target that can survive that long will have taken more damage from the burn as it would have from the bullet itself if it did not crit.
However, it’s less than useless in Vacuum.
Given how environment can change during the game, I would reserve this skill for bosses only. Or at least situations where you’re sure to be in atmosphere all the time like R&D.
Otherwise, for general play, it’s neighbor Crack shot may be more versatile depending on your gear.
I need to test:
If it’s really multiplicative with everything.
How it interacts with other damage boosts
The actual proc chances
If it works with the Omni-canon
charrisx
(If you want it dead, you want a Jakobs.)
#8
It does work with it, yes.
1 Like
charrisx
(If you want it dead, you want a Jakobs.)
#9
This is entirely not true at all. Hot Lead is an amazing skill in which it does not act at all like normal fire weapons / ignite damage.
For example, if i go outside (in a vacuum) and crit enemies via their crit spot or with Tombstone, using my Two Fer Luck Cannon, I get normal crits for like 1,100-1,200 (the two bullet damages combine) and I see fire damage crits from 400k to 800k dmg, I’m sorry but that is in no way less than useless. You really need to field test outside on a badass enemy. You can’t just stay locked up in your firing range. I even get partial burn damage (DoT damage) on fire resistant enemies outside, its not 15 ticks, more like 5-10 or so, but still substantial. Hot Lead DOES work outside, and to great effect.
Why do you think I love this skill so much over Crack Shot?
A good test would be against Iwajira: he’s big, weak to fire and in a Vacuum.
Maybe testing with a slightly under leveled LC would yield times that are easier to compare.
Edit: or rather, with an at-level one, but without kill skills so that the results are consistent.
I also need to test one thing, since your experience with hot lead is with the LC: is the moneyshot damage included to calculate hot lead ? If so, it may disproportionately help hot lead, and provide false figures for our tests. (And at the same time, is the splash from the Omni-canon added too ?)
Remember: I’m not trying to figure out what it the best choice in a given circumstance. I’m trying to figure out how hot lead works.
charrisx
(If you want it dead, you want a Jakobs.)
#12
Lower damage is normal. The damage is either cut in more than half, or doubled. Almost Nothing has normal resistance to fire.
I know that the initial fire damage (which I’ll call the spark to make this conversation easier) can crit like anything else with tombstone. But I’ve never seen any proper DOT crit. Since the spark is only slightly more damage than a tick, it could be visually misleading, especially when using a Two-fer gun (which might make each spark appear separately) it might explain both DOTs in vacuum and DOTs that crit without too much hassle.
I will have to be pretty careful when testing.
I think I’ll test on Kragons: they never have Shields, have a big crit spot and are fairly slow.
I don’t have the means to record though, so if I do see some DoTs in a vacuum, I will need assistance in providing evidence.
if you are going for a jakobs+tombstone build hot lead is the best way to go over than crack shot imo
sucks to know that it under-perform on vacuum and the damage is not based on critical
but good to know the tick damage is based overall with all the bonuses to gun damage specially a jakobs gun
heck even 3-4/5 it performs well
charrisx
(If you want it dead, you want a Jakobs.)
#17
My wife was on my computer earlier so i was playing on the Xbox so i could get a quick picture for your entertainment
This is in Regolith Range, against an Ultimate Badass Scav, using a Dastardly Luck Cannon with NO Hell’s, so one shot, would be ONE shot and leave out any confusion for myself, and the picture. If your target dies to the initial gunshot, you will never see fire damage, If the initial shot does not kill the enemy but it crit, you will then see the initial “spark” as you so called it, If the spark does not then kill the enemy the DoT will then afflict the target until it wears off or until the target dies. Isn’t that spray of purple crits just lovely to see?
Like i was saying, In the firing range, these DoT Ticks (non crit) against the fleshy target do like 101-103k with the Dastardly with only my reload skill and mag 6. As you can see with my build and 30 stacks and all that wonderful stuff, the DoT ticks are critting for 602k, and that was ONE bullet fired mind you, in a vacuum. the “spark” does anywhere from 800k-1000k in damage with the dastardly. Hot Lead is the absolute best evar.
But of course this is all information I already knew, from all my extensive testing, which is why I just could not wrap my head around why anyone would EVER in any situation choose Crack Shot over Hot Lead if using Non-Elemental guns. Also yet another reason the Blue Crapshooter is so devastating when mixed with Tombstone + Hot Lead. Moar Crits from Hot Lead is Moar Bettar
What I see from this picture are 4 identical damage values. And during my testing, I was only getting identical values from the spark (same value every time). The DoTs were random with every single tick. So my guess is those are the 4 sparks from 4 different bullets. (or you got VERY VERY VERY lucky with RNG)
And there is nothing in the picture that can inform me that those are indeed DoT ticks and not sparks…
Evidence, but not CONCLUSIVE evidence.
While the fact that the spark itself will appear in Vacuum or that it can crit with Tombstone was never put in question, I can’t accept this picture as PROOF that DoTs from Hot lead will proc in a Vacuum, sorry.
I know I sound harsh, but i’m trying to steer this away from confirmation bias as much as possible, So in essence, i’m trying as hard as I can to DISPROVE your claim. When I have failed, we’ll know it’s the truth. That’s the core of any scientific experimentation worth a damn.
I’d really really like to see a video of a burn DoT in Action in a Vacuum.
Something that CLEARLY and unequivocally isn’t damage from another source.
And to anyone who wish to help, please pick another gun besides the Luck Canon or the Omni-canon, as I have not run any tests on the moneyshot or splash’s effect on Hot lead’s damage. A careful Cartesian approach requires that we remove all non-essential variables. (it will also make the “if they don’t die” part more likely to happen )
Please understand that i’m not trying to be dismissive of your efforts, I just want to do this properly, with a methodology that can’t be put into question.
One thing at a time: When we have proof that DoT from Hot lead can proc in a vacuum, we’ll move to seeing if it can crit. Right now, no tombstone, no nothing… just (conclusive) evidence of Hot lead procing a DoT in a Vacuum.
In atmosphere, Hot lead is CLEARLY superior to Crack shot on almost every account, no doubt in my mind now.
When we have a definitive conclusion on what it can do in a Vacuum, I may be able to reach a GLOBAL conclusion about it.
charrisx
(If you want it dead, you want a Jakobs.)
#20
I’m back on my computer now, i’ll make a video real quick.
j/k man, good work on this, lookin forward to a full thread of results! Keep it up!
)