Build theory talk

Borderlands: The Pre-Sequel Wilhelm the Enforcer
#1

I only just just finished normal mode, but I’m thinking about which build to aim for to level 70, and I’m interested to hear what everybody thinks.

This is my very rough and basic idea for a staple W&S, non Cold War / Elemental, tanking build:

(link: http://thepresequel.com/Wilhelm/150415000515105111503155501500001/celenforcer,auto)

Now I’m pretty sure on why I want or don’t want most skills on there, but I have a few questions that come with it and I hope you Wilhelm vets can proved me with more insight on them.

1)

How would you guys spec the too few 9 skill points I have for Emergency Response, Divert Power and Welcome to the Gun Show?

I mean I could spec out of Shock Absorbers to free up 1 more skill point (albeit I think it’s a funny and unique skill, despite its questionable efficiency overall), but the problem still remains. Being a perfectionist it bugs me not to be able to get 5/5 in WTTGS (yes I know 2 points in it are “just” 6 %, but it still bugs me), without taking points out of the outstanding Divert Power or having 0/5 in ER…
What would you people do here?

2)

I’m not too sure on the Dreadnought skill tree.

More specifically about it missing Heatsinks and Hard to Kill especially (the others are not skills I think I’ll be missing too much for this build, and yes I know HtK is controversial), so my question here is, is 10/5 in Auxiliary Tanks and/or Energize overkill (I mean because the cooldown/duration on W&S isn’t too bad anyway, and +6.0 % health regen of Energize sounds nuts), and should I take some points out there if I’m using a Celestial Enforcer, to use them in Heatsinks and or Hard to Kill? How would you distribute the points among these skills here?

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#2

I like your path down the Dreadnought tree. I’m personally not a big fan of the lower half of the Cyber Commando tree and use those points to fill out the Hunter Killer tree a bit more, but I think that build will be fine.

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#3

Similar to my go-to build with a chronicler

Pets will kill stuff just fine when mobbing and are not a big help with bosses anyways. Do take hazmat and scramble as one point wonders.

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#4

All right cheers.

Thanks.

How do you find Auxiliary Tanks and Energize at “only” 5/5 with the Chronicler? Is 5/5 more than enough, so can I spec out of these a bit with the Celestial in your opinion?
And don’t you miss not having Heatsinks and Hard to Kill? What’s your take on them?

I should probably consider getting a Chronicler as the class mod, but the buffs to only 5 skills and the +4 max in them is a bit of a bummer, isn’t it?

#5

The chronicler boosts less skills, but it boosts a very good combination of high tier skills, while the celestial only boosts low tier skills. Survivability is just fine outside the mutator arena at 9, and the damage output is outstanding, esp. with cryo lasers. Eos, Eclipse, raid sentinel, and Holo Dome are no problem at all.

If you want to stick with CE, I’d rebalance aux tanks and energize to 1 point each to free up points for heatsinks, scramble, hazmat, kill switch and whatever else you like.

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#6

I see, thanks again.

#7

I like this build, a lot like ha na’s

#8

I think your Dreadnought Tree is perfect, (Heatsinks v Fortify is Shield Dependent, but I prefer fortify)

A couple things I don’t like too much about your Commando and Hunter-Killer trees:

I think putting points in Gun Show is a waste if you don’t have a COM boost. Sure you get a general boost but the numbers are so small that it’s not worth it. Also not maxing out ER is criminal IMO, the boost lasts for a very long time and it’s a strong DPS Boost at that. Slide those points into ER.

I don’t think Power Fist or Shock Absorbers are necessary unless u need to get down the tree, as their both extremely situational in their effective applications, and since you have the M+M point due to Celestial, you don’t really need either, but they might be throw-away points at the end.

Hunter Killer:
Max out afterburner and Supression, bullet speed and Fire rate make your DPS really good and opens up your realm to a wider variety of weapons (Which the Celestial is Best at as it’s the best all purpose COM)

Also, slam a singleton into Scramble, it won’t happen much, but a free 30% duration for 1 point is hard to pass up.

About Rolling thunder, I personally don’t think it’s necessary at all, but I can consistently get 20ish stacks on it if there are trash mobs but normal wolf with celestial buffs usually takes most mobbing scenarios on its own, and you’re probably not heavily relying on wolf damage during Boss scenarios anyhow, especially when you’re generally not getting stacks that high. It’s a place you could throw extra points, but I hardly think it’s a mandatory max.

I personally would go with something like this

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#9

Wow, thanks a ton for taking the time to wite this and explain everything in detail.

So, basically you say afterburner over rolling thunder? Isn’t 10/5 in it overkill (aside from the awesome +50% reload I mean, just as far as wolf is concerned), and Rolling Thunder the better option? I always thought keeping Wolf up long enough to get to some good stacks is pretty easy, even in boss fights where you can’t spam laser guided on weaker opponents all the time, with just 5/5 in Auxiliary Tanks. And now 10/5 in Auxiliary Tanks would have even better synergies with Rolling Thunder, or not? As said this is all theory talk for me just yet so correct me if I’m wrong please…

Thanks for the suggestion about neglecting Gun Show entirely, will consider it.

As for the Dreadnaught tree, what’s you opinion on my Energized question? Is 10/5 in it not overkill, and would a few points invested in HtK instead not benefit my game more? I mean 10/5 in it is probably great for health gating, but with Divert Power and all his other great shield skills Wilhelm is probably not too reliant ot that, or am I wrong?

#10

There’s rarely such thing as Overkill, except maybe going past 5 in Divert Power, especially when talking about DPS Skills, sure you can make afterburner a singleton, but I champion that YOUR damage is more important than Wolf’s Damage, so boosting that is more paramount.

I also think Rolling Thunder is overkill in itself.

#11

My only comment about rolling thunder is that against the Guardian Hunter mission I had stacks over 300 against lvl 72 Guardians, wolf could kill a guardian in one sweep. I realize this was an optimum situation, but still,

#12

@Hoyle4 completely agree with your view of Hunter Killer. I spec it almost the same way each time.

Wolf’s dps is already good enough from fire support, ER, suppression, LG, & Omega Strike anyways.

Although I do disagree with your views on the Cyber augmentations, but I had a quick question.
You are aware that Laser Guided is Multiplicative right? So surely increasing your damage by another 15% then multiplied along with his other additive bonuses is never a bad thing right?

#13

I know its a death mark, I never find myself running to use it tho

#14

I was speaking on behalf of gun show, not shock absorbers (20% increase to gun damage, no accuracy penalties) as I know it’s somewhat of an acquired taste.

Just because I was trying to make sense of what you said above. Which was along the lines of “it’s not necessary to spec wttgs if you don’t have a com adding +% damage” of some kind? I’m assuming I interpreted that correctly.

#15

You Said Augmentation, so I assumed the running or punching one

Yes, its good. Just not great, I don’t like Gun Show because, although damage is multiplicative with Death Mark, 5 points for a little more damage (Even if it’s a little more than 15%) isn’t worth it when those 5 points could be a Huge chunk of fire rate and reload speed for 15 seconds.

Lets Say Gun A does like 100 damage (Let’s say it’s a laser too). Without gun show it kinda looks like this (It’s not exact cuz there’s a bunch of other factors in damage calculation but let’s use this for now).

(100*(1+.1.411))1.25 = 301.375 and (100*(1+1.411)(1+1.25))1.25 = 678.094 on crit

With Gun Show

(100*(1+.1.561))1.25 = 320.125 and (100*(1+1.561)(1+1.25))1.25 = 720.28 on crit

You’re doing roughly, very very roughly, 6% more damage per shot by Speccing 5 points into gun show over say Emergency response. You also get a bunch more minor goodies (that DO influence DPS, but are gun dependent as they’re 15 percent buffs to reload and mag). Whether or not thats worth the situational 30% Fire Rate and Reload Speed for 15 seconds, I don’t know for sure as that is also gun dependent. Granted, this damage increase varies on your other +Gun Damage Buffs, as it does more the lower your +Gun Damage is (Say it wasn’t a Laser and u ran No +GD Gear it would be a 10% Damage Boost instead of 6). I personally say it’s not worth, but you may differ.

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#16

Well I did say “cyber augmenations” so I couldn’t possibly be referring to both could I?

Also on your equation I’m curious as what the 1.411 & 1.561 percentages are they really his gun damage increases added up?

I’m not denying that Emergency Response is a good skill, it’s one of my favorites of his but I already ran fire rate calcs myself long ago and found Wilhelm can’t even get above 30 with an anarchist.

#17

Those Numbers were From Skills (70%) and Obligatory Laser Gear (71.1%) (It should actually be more because I forgot celestial boost)

Redone
(100*(1+.1.761))1.25 = 345.125 and (100*(1+1.761)(1+1.25))1.25 = 776.53125 on crit
V
(100*(1+.1.911))1.25 = 363.875 and (100*(1+1.911)(1+1.25))1.25 = 818.71875 on crit

It’s actually closer to 5%

Max Potential Fire Rate Bonus: 135% (105% Without ER) [During Overcharge with Supression + ER Buff]

Currently not counting Blaster/Projector COM FR Boosts cuz this was mainly a Celestial Convo.

(Currently Assuming Fire Rate Bonuses Follow the Same Formula as Damage Bonuses, Correct Me If I’m Wrong)

Minimum Fire Rate to Hit 10 from 135%:4.26, 105%: 4.88

Minimum Fire Rate to Hit 15 from 135%: 6.39, 105%: 7.32

Minimum Fire Rate to Hit 30 from 135% : 12.77 105% 14.64

I could also Calc w/o overcharge and supression separately, but I was gunning for max potential.

I think that would cover it. These would be the Thresholds that Your Gun’s Stats would need to Hit for ER’s Fire Rate Buf to be useful. [Reload Speed Should Always Be Useful]

So, If Your Guns Card FR is in the following ranges:
[4.26,4.88]
[6.39,7.32]
[12.77,14.64]

You would for sure want ER over WtGS, amirite @Chaosmark101?

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#18

Ahh. I figured gear was factored in there.

Edit:@Hoyle4 I must have done something completely wrong then thank you for the information.

I guess i’ll be going back to my TVHM days where I shelve gun show again.

Btw I found in a test that with Wilhelm’s skills alone 130% total & 90% with first to fight excluded. that there was a difference of 21% (using the same 100 as base) but I guess now that’s still rather insignificant compared the stupidly huge fire rate increase. Thanks for the information Dude!

#19

Were these Damage Boosts? 130 and 90%?

Edit I See it now that I didn’t have Shock Absorbers.

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#20

Excluding Laser Guided.
FS=15
LF=20
F2F=40
SA=20
WTGS=15
F=20

Total Gun damage .15+.2+.4.+.2+.15+.2 = 1.30
Total Gun damage excluding First to fight = .15+.2+.2+.15+.2 = .90

Obviously First to Fight isn’t constant though.
it’s a nice source of Burst DPS. But sometimes TG is better

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