Moze Feedback/Skills

Borderlands 3 Moze the Gunner
#1

Hello. I checked the other threads to see if there was something similar being said. I did not notice similar things. I got a lot to say about Moze as I feel the Skills are out of place

Moze is designed to put a lot of bullets down range. She is the new Roland/Axton in a few ways. Unfortunately, the Skills are out of place, or not scaling well. I will go by a random list

Cloud of Lead: This skill is only for saving a bullet every now and then. The issue is that all the weapons Moze would benefit the most from, are low in damage. This percent is too small to properly scale with the gun itself. Even if it were to scale, it is Incendiary damage. Some enemies are immunie to it, or the enemy has shields. It would make more sense if the bonus damage was Phyiscal as it is more universal

Matched Set: This requires a set of weaponry which is difficult to do given how random things are. If there was a way to craft the items you seek, or have a vending machine specific to a manufacturer, then this would lower the difficulty and make this a more useful skill

Stoke the Embers: This combined with Specialist Bear makes the Iron Bear do crazy damage to fleshy targets. Problem is it is Incendiary damage. It has to go through shields or worry about enemies being immune to it. Then you have to think about equiping the Iron Bear with the Salamander which is a hassle. It is much easier to leave it on the Minigun because it is Physical damage . The only thing left for this skill is for use with Moze. Another meh proposition because again, Physical is universal and much more valuable

Redistribution: One of the out of place Skills. It is a skill that makes Moze want to be a Sniper. She is designed to put bullets down range, not try to slow down and aim for the head. This does not make sense at all. Even with the best Dahl burst AR/SMG you can find, you are lucky to be hitting the head because of bloom, and movement. Then to make it worse, it is based on the Magazine and not the ammo pool… Making this more useless. You will dump so many rounds that the regen can not keep up. This should be something else

Scorching RPM’s: The only reason this skill works is because of the rate of fire. As pointed out above, headshots are difficult

The Iron Bank: This skill would of been perfectly fine if it was a flat ammo increase, not a percent. I will use 2 guns for this example. One is my best Vladof, the other Dahl (both are AR’s). The Dahl has a 24 round magazine while the Vladof is 60. The Vladof would get a 21 round bonus from the skill, while the Dahl only gets 8. This game should be about choices. If I like to play with Dahl weapons, then the Skill should compliment it. Unfortunately that is not the case. It benefits Vladof the most unfortunately

Forge: Same problem as Redistribution. It is based on the Magazine and not the total ammo capacity. If it refilled the ammo capacity instead of the mag, this would of been a lot better

Experimental Munitions: Incendiary yet again, and to further add to the problems, it is based on Critical Hits. Moze is not suppose to be a Sniper!

Force Feedback: Oh no… This is a Critical Kill ability. If this was a gain health and shields for each bullet after a Second Wind, then I could understand it

Thin Red Line, Selfless Vengeance, and Desperate Measure: All of this is depends on low health. Not ideal given that Iron Bear takes awhile to cool down, and Force Feedback doesn’t work on bosses

Fire in the Skag Den: Demolition Woman is perhaps the only well planned tree. This makes sense on all skills except this one… It is Incendiary. Please put physical on it so it actually has more uses!

Last on my list is the Iron Bear itself. As a few other posters have pointed out, you can’t rely on this to be your damage dealer. It is mostly there to give you a shield recharge. Given the long cool down, that is not something you can’t comfortably rely on though

I do agree that the Iron Bear needs to be looked at however, that will be hard to do. If you have Specialist Bear and Minigun upgraded, it can shred half a boss health bar before it runs out of fuel. If you give it more fuel then it becomes a damage dealer

If you give it a lower Cool Down, then it will become a mech game. I am not sure what the proper balance method is. Someone who is better at thinking of fixes will have to be the one to try and find a solution

For now, this is all I have. Thank you if you read this!

1 Like
#2

On all the incendiary skills, you’re correct a lot of enemies receive reduced damage from fire, but it’s free damage, paired with a shocking photon laser you can take out the shield and light them on fire in one blast. Plus, it makes Moze super deadly vs fleshies.

Please don’t yuck my yum, I very much enjoy her critical damage bonuses because I get them fairly often with my torgue stickies, and it feels awesome. Also, if you’re using a sniper rifle, grats! Now you’re a sniper, and if I want to snipe with Moze I’m happy she’ll be decent at it

This is one of the first borderlands with fairly significant build diversity options and, while it takes getting used to, I like it.

4 Likes
#3

They designed a perfect sniper for Moze — the One Pump Chump — single pellet shotgun with scope, huge base damage and a 50% chance to not use ammo. Once you get redistribution and scorching RPMs going, it totally shreds. I was using my level 10 one until level 20 or so.

#4

Cloud of Lead: This skill is only for saving a bullet every now and then.

It’s a very decent mag size increase, and very broken with some weapons. The incendiary damage is just the icing on the cake. Much like Iron Bank, it works towards making you mag size big enough for Forge and Redis to really work their magic.

Matched Set: This requires a set of weaponry which is difficult to do given how random things are. If there was a way to craft the items you seek, or have a vending machine specific to a manufacturer

It’s not the best skill while levelling, but really powerful at endgame. But even just 3 pieces of gear from the same manufacturer would give you +30% magsize, which is great for 5 points.

Redistribution: One of the out of place Skills. It is a skill that makes Moze want to be a Sniper. She is designed to put bullets down range, not try to slow down and aim for the head.

If you only score crits when using Snipers you are doing something wrong. Moze has 3 different skills based on scoring critical hits, if you aren’t scoring crits consistently, you are playing her wrong.

. Then to make it worse, it is based on the Magazine and not the ammo pool… Making this more useless. You will dump so many rounds that the regen can not keep up. This should be something else

If this is your complaint, you clearly don’t understand the intent of the BM tree. It’s not infinite ammo, its infinite mag. Same as your complaint about Forge.

The Iron Bank: This skill would of been perfectly fine if it was a flat ammo increase, not a percent. I will use 2 guns for this example. One is my best Vladof, the other Dahl (both are AR’s). The Dahl has a 24 round magazine while the Vladof is 60. The Vladof would get a 21 round bonus from the skill, while the Dahl only gets 8.

I mean that’s how 95% of mag size skills in Borderlands work. In theory you still increase mag by the same proportion. And Mag Size skills don’t necessarily benefit guns with big mags the most. If a gun has 100 in the mag, it will gain +35, which seems great on paper. But you are pretty much able to fire endlessly with 100 already, while a gun with 20 in the mag will become 27, which is a significant mag size increase. This skill is crucial for pushing some guns over the line (like some hyperion shotties) to work with BM.

Force Feedback: Oh no… This is a Critical Kill ability. If this was a gain health and shields for each bullet after a Second Wind, then I could understand it

I don’t know, it seems clear if Moze has so many critical hit skills, she is clearly designed to be skill based and consistently score critical hits don’t you think? If you can’t score critical hits then you really should play another class or buck up your aim.

Thin Red Line, Selfless Vengeance, and Desperate Measure: All of this is depends on low health. Not ideal given that Iron Bear takes awhile to cool down, and Force Feedback doesn’t work on bosses

The entire point of SoR is to make Moze a massive shield tank at the cost of health - which is what all these 3 skills build towards. I agree this may make her abit squishy for bosses, but I suppose that’s what Tenacious Defense is for.

I don’t know, your whole argument makes it sound as if you don’t understand what the game designers were trying to go for with Moze. The Bottomless Mag tree is not about Ammo Regen, its about massively extending your Mag Size, so that throughout a confrontation, you may never have to reload a single time. All those mag size buffs + cloud of lead help build towards a magic number where she can basically fire a weapon forever. The Shield of Retribution skill tree is a risk-reward skill tree - it is built around making your shields so big, and continually recharging, that enemies cannot get through it. And if you do make this shield tank build work, you are rewarded with crazy amounts of dps on the side.

10 Likes
#5

You’re vastly underselling redistribution. Yes, it works on mag size. But that’s really useful with both high and low magazine weapons. With my jakobs rifle, I end up making my mag last 50% longer, with my Dahl pistols I could shoot indefinitely if I keep getting crits. I got a perfect sweet spot with the butcher on a badass enforcer and literally melted him with constant crits without reloading.

1 Like
#7

YoUr WhOlE ArGument is wrong… YoU aRe sUppoSe to be MLG wItH yOuR aim insert out dated spongebob meme

Ok look this is Borderlands not Rainbow Six Siege. Here is my compromise if it is suppose to be “bottomless mag”… Make the Redistribution and Forge abilities a flat number just like the Magazine Size so everything benefits better

Also they could of made it so that Moze get critical hits for hitting the body instead of the head. That would of been a far better approach to it

It could of been done so that Cloud of Lead is a Critical Hit every 4th bullet or something like that

#8

Okay, so skill doesn’t mean skill with shooters it means skill with a game, you’re supposed to feel better at playing as you practise at it, because otherwise you get bored easily. You don’t need to be the best ever at shooters to critical, God knows I’m not, but if they just gave it to you it wouldn’t be worth learning. Basic game theory.

2 Likes
#9

Isnt it better to play Fl4k instead?

#10

Those are all awful ideas, frankly. You may as well just put in a skill that automatically kills any enemy with more health than you and it would accomplish the same purpose as giving free crits for nothing.

3 Likes
#11

Yes that is the way games work but, there is a fine line between efficient design and being able to play the game at that level. Even if you are at that level, the tree could of been done a lot better to compliment the game play that was intended for Moze. With the way she is designed now, it is a weird hybrid setup

As for 1sirus2… if they are awful then how about you share some ideas. All you did with that reply was be like “nope”. You didn’t bother to give constructive criticism or anything

#12

Moze’s skills do compliment her gameplay. Judging by your complaints, it seem to not compliment the way that you want to play. Big difference.

Also, you should always be taking advantage of critical hits with every character using every weapon. There’s simply no reason not too.

1 Like
#13

It really sounds like you just want the game to play itself.

“Just make her do more flat damage so that I don’t have to consider elemental weaknesses, make it so that I don’t have to aim to get critical hits, and make it so that all of her skills work exactly how I want them to based on how I play the game”.

I really think you should reconsider how you look at builds. If you find that certain skills are not benefiting your play style or your skill level then you should change up your build to better compliment how you play. It’s possible that Moze just isn’t the character that best suits you.

#14

I think a different way to put it would be to say that she doesn’t have a build that strongly supports one play style, but instead has options that could strongly support several different play styles, I.E hybrid. But that’s what I meant by build diversity, I like the hybridization because strongly supporting one play style means weakening doing anything else, I like being able to do a couple different things, especially in a game with randomized loot.

#15

the main problem I have with moze skills is the lack of synergy compared to other characters. You’re forced to use Iron Bear, and compared to other characters, your ability don’t add/complete your build, it pretty much replace your character. Moze is 2 characters in one, but 90% of the skills only buff Moze. Flak have some of the same issues with the pets, but here it’s worse since you don’t have different abilities.

What is the point to have skills that only buff Iron bear when you only play a small amount with it? (certainly why there is so few iron bear skills).

I found that cloud of lead is the way to go because it’s buffing both mose & iron bear. (there is other skills working too, but it’s never clear). Shield of retribution have only 2 skills for iron bear and none of the shield mechanics work/add something to iron bear gameplay. Demolition woman have 4 skills, 18 skills points just to deal with the super long cooldown and limited iron bear fuel/duration. 18 skills points that add nothing to moze infantry gameplay.

few suggestions:

Selfless vengeance

  • give the bonus for 15 sec when exiting iron bear

Security Bear

  • x% mose shield

Amored Infantry

  • x% Iron Bear DMG when his shield is up

Thin Red line, Vladd Ing et Desesperate Measures could work with iron bear with different %
In fact most skills can just apply to Iron Bear with a specific % for balance.

Demolition woman with the vampyr grenade could be the health tank option. Stainless steel bear could give Mose extra health. Grizzled bear could give extra life regen while active.

#16

I do agree with this complaint, Mozes special ability feels disconnected from her rather than an integral part of her play.

I want auto bear to allow for a version of iron bear summoned autonomously like a walking turret. That way I can skip summoning just to get out.

1 Like
#17

You assumed wrong. I don’t want the game to play itself. I am saying that there is a far more efficient way for Moze to be designed. If everyone is going to be that stubborn with keeping her as is then fine rename her Specialist. She isn’t a gunner. A gunner puts bullets down range, not slow down to look for critical hits

Here is what I don’t get… Axton was designed similar to what I am describing and NO ONE had an issue with it as far as I saw. Yet somehow in the next Borderland now everyone is up in a tizzy

If people think that her skills compliment her, I am going to disagree strongly. Her skills are weird and or hybrid. There is not a clear pattern as to her play style

As for Takkik I can agree with the lack of synergy. I would be much happier with it as a Turret so it is kind of like Axton but… I am concerned with how that would play out. AI is notoriously derpy in most games

#18

Ah yes, the classic soldiers technique of aiming where the armor is heaviest and the enemy is hurt the least.
I also think you fail to grasp exactly what moze is supposed to do. That is to say that moze puts out bullets faster than any other character and just as effectively. She was a Vladof soldier. The same Vladof that makes guns with insane fire rates and large magazines. Iron Bear is supposed to support her, and he does. It’s one of the most classic combos in gaming imaginable, the tank and the dps hose.

Okay, I’ll do just that. You have some fixation on critical hits. It’s not only try-hards or snipers, it’s anyone that plays that is even mildly competent. When you play darts you aim for the bullseye, even if you miss you’ve come closer than you would have aiming for the ring. Giving out critical hits would be to diminish from the already-low skill requirement to play the game. We already saw this in Nisha and it was absolutely broken.
As for forge and redistribution, if you make these flat numbers that allows you to spam rockets at unprecedented rates. They would have to make the skill not work on rockets, which makes it immediately less useful than it is as of now. It’s not meant to be an infinite ammo cheatcode, because that would be stupid, it’s supposed to allow a skilled player to return more bullets than they’re expending. In fact, these skills are too effective and it would be a good call to Nerf the numbers because it is essentially infinite ammo at this point.

No, not really. Axton has a few skills that buff his turrets and a whole bunch that buff himself, your main complaint with moze. Furthermore, he was the weakest character and plenty of people complained about his useless turrets in the late game. The same for gaige and DT, it’s hard to make a class like this that doesn’t favor either the summoner or the summon, and if you do manage it they’ll both be weaker than the other three characters available for you to play as.

Gearbox knows what they’re doing. Moze was the first character they designed and the one that took the most effort to get right. Sitting here and saying “she sucks, these skills should all be buffed” does nothing but establish you as someone that yells first and forms a cohesive opinion second (or never probably.) Things aren’t going to change because you don’t understand them or because you don’t care enough to utilize the abilities given to you.

1 Like
#19

It’s the core of the problem, and in b3 you have 3/4 classes with the problem, Moze the worst because she don’t have another ability to change.

Since Iron Bear isn’t optional, you should not have to choose between boosting moze or iron bear, both should progress together. To add to the problem, when using Iron bear you loose your character and skills… iron bear have the same gameplay (outside of weapons) whatever skill tree you use.

Another problem is the scaling. How can iron bear work at high difficulty when it don’t benefit from gear? You don’t have much buff inside Moze tree. Iron bear gain pretty much nothing from shield of retribution. That why they should make all skill buff iron bear. Or make iron bear scaling from Moze stats. Like armor increase with moze max shield/health, iron bear weapon count as gun/weapon for the skills etc… Or allow Iron bear to use moze shield.

At some point Iron bear don’t really offer any protection/tank, even at low level it can have difficulty to survive. So, why not remove armor? The ability already has the longest cooldown and the fuel limit.

I just got the feeling that gearbox balance was just to let you ignore your iron at endgame.

#20

The only skills I would ever suggest to apply to IB are the ones in the Demolition Woman tree, so it could benefit from its splash guns.
Minigun IB seems to perform with Bottomless Mags and it can also stack Phalanx Doctrine with its kills for Shield of Retribution. The Railgun can have all elements too, so it will always be useful. Full Can of Whoop-Ass also turns IB into a nice emergency button, especially when DoT breaks through your shield.

Getting Crits is part of the game, this is why there are critical hit spots. And how there is no synergy in Moze skill trees if the same critical hit that restores your ammo can grant you some Incendiary damage too? The one that stacks with the Cloud of Lead and is boosted by Stoke the Embers, skills already in the way to Redistribution?

I dont know, seems off.

#21

Ah yes another person putting words in my mouth. Certain constructive criticism is fine but, assuming what I think is wrong

I fully grasp what is going on. You all just fail to see my side because you won’t give me an inch. If you bothered to do that, you would see that I am trying to say those Critical Skills and Ammo Regen doesn’t make sense

Here let me give you another example seeing as we are at an impass. I wouldn’t suggest this as it may be copying the COV or Destiny. If Moze had unlimited Magazine on all non COV, and Heavy Weapons, and it instead drew from the total ammo pool THEN that would be a gunner

In the current state is an odd hybrid because it has a mix of sniper like skill, and a weird skill to go with it

Ok so if the Flat Ammo is a problem then just divide it up… Make Forge and Redistribution only apply to SMG’s, AR’s, and Pistols (that are not COV). Then make it so the Demo Woman tree gets a Regen with Torgue and Vladof Heavy weapons. Fixed

And yes firing at the heaviest armor does work in real life… its called getting a Five Seven or a 50 cal (pending what it is)

Axton did just fine without his turret. Easiest solo I ever had in BL2. Because he got bonus damage with rockets, you dropped that on the biggest target and win

See Takkik is actually doing something to benefit the original point I was trying to make. I could see Moze getting like a Heavy Armor Skill, or maybe she brings out a portable mini gun

As for l_gabrielcruz… I have been trying to say this for the longest time… It doesn’t have synergy with the Gunner mentality. If people have such a hard on for her to remain with her weird hybrid setup then rename her to a Specialist because that is what she is

Look in real life Gunner means someone on a vehicle gun, or a Squad Weapon. Look at anyone in those positions in real life and you will see they dont train them to aim for the head. They are there to put a bunch of bullets down range. Basically the “throw crap on the wall until something sticks”

I know this isn’t real life but, I am trying to relay something and I am hoping someone gets that