SMG vs AR not fair

Borderlands: The Pre-Sequel BL: TPS Loot and Weapons Chat
#1

I’d like to know why the SMG in both bl2 and tps outclasses their AR counterpart. I find it incredibly irritating when no matter what the smg is better. Like comparing the major tom and torrent for example it isn’t even fair.

#2

Gearbox have absolutely no idea what their doing when it comes to weapon balancing frankly.

Unless they meant for AR’s to be the weapons to go to if you want to tickle your enemies.

3 Likes
#3

I guess you haven’t tried the Hail, Hammer Buster, Shredifier, and Torgue Rifle/Spitter.

#4

The Hail, Hammer buster, Shredifier and spitters do not have SMG counterparts.

why anyone thought type C crit bonus’s where a good idea is anyones guess.

#5

GBX did AR’s right in BL1.
So right I might add. Not sure what happened though.

6 Likes
#7

If torque jakobs and vladof had smgs they’d 1up the ARs

#8

Type C?

I do like the hail. Very powerful and lasts many levels. I also found a glitched jakobs assault rifle I really like. I think it has high odds for the O effect.

I guess you’re saying it would be wiser to compare a purple SMG to a purple assault rifle. What manufacturer though? Looks like only bandit and dahl is shared between the two. Both would be meh for me. Backup weapon to spray a lot of bullets when my main ammo pools are out. I’d rather have a vladof assault rifle or a maliwan smg. Which I use for different purposes. So I really can’t compare them.

If we’re talking unique SMGs though, dahl has some nice ones in BL2 at least.

#9

20% penalty to crit. So instead of the full 100% bonus for doing crits, it’s actually an 80% bonus. Jakobs AR’s are the only ARs that don’t have Type C crit.

1 Like
#10

This is a several year old discission at this point. Yes in BL2 and TPS ARs are made made to be underwhelming.

And i think the reason for this is the different gun mechanics. BL1 i dont think had the soft caps for fire rates. So getting a gun with 15 fire rate (smgs) was just stunning. You had a much better balace.

I believe the highest fire rate for ARs was 11.2 and damage was around 400 ish (torgue AR could cross 500 but with like 9.8 fire rate).

Smgs could be anything from a bloody 3.2 to like a 22.1. But damage on a single shot smg was around 220. So you could have double the fire rate but half the damage.

Also known as a lil thing called balance.

Now ARs basically cap around 10 fire rate and the damage is typically a lil less than SMGs. Yes torgue ARs are strong (and i still use them an my main on Willy) but at a top fire rate of 5.0 which then causes a massive loss to accuracy ARs are still at a disadvantage to SMGs.

Also bring back my Atlas ARs Gearbox!!!

#11

Yeah, my comment was in reply to this:

I see the point that you’re making with respect to direct counterparts within brand but when you look at the top gear for each type there isn’t as great of a performance gap as a lot of players make it out to be. Reduced critical hit damage on ARs was probably put in place to give players incentive to use SRs. But I think they should have increased their inherent stability and accuracy too.

#12

I don’t really agree with your assessment.
Having 5 or 6 good ARs does not mean the entire class of weapons is good.
The hail has splash, splits into 2 bullets, and has a 150% (or is it 250%) crit bonus.
The hammer buster II has increaed damage and an increased crit modifier compared to normal ARs.
The major tom splits into 3 bullets.
These are not typical features of ARs. If you take a routine, run of the mill AR, only a few are worth a dang. No scavs, most Dahls with the exception of the minigun, and most Vladofs aren’t worth using over SMGS. Especially now with the Fast talker, even vladofs are invalidated for the most part. There are few assault rifles that actually have a place as viable weapons. Most can be easily replaced with an SMG.

They have no redeeming factors. They have low damage, high recoil, low accuracy when hip fired, low elemental effect chance, lower fire rate than SMGs, smaller clips, lower ammo pool, and a decreased crit modifier. They need far more than a stability and accuracy buff imo.

#13

and comparing dahl smg and ar legendaries isnt a good starting point, you need to use any other rarity to accurately compare the two gun types. i never got why they changed the gun types and mechanics SO much between 1 and 2. i agree with others who want maliwan shotguns or vladof smgs

#14

You can make the same argument for SMGs or any weapon class for that matter.

So we can’t factor in legendary or unique weapons and yet you bring up a unique loyalty reward (no less) to compare to a Vladof Rifle? Stay consistent. If you’re going to compare blues/purples do just that.

This isn’t accurate. SMGs do not have a higher base damage than ARs, and neither does every single SMG outpoint an AR in every other attribute that you listed. That varies considerably based on the weapon manufacturer so much that you aren’t really making a fair comparison at all. And for all the criticism of Type C, no one ever brings up that the fact that higher base damage offsets much of that decreased crit modifier. So you may get more or less damage on crit versus an SMG but you will always get more damage on body shot.

Bottom line, I’m more likely to use Jakobs, Dahl, Vladof, or Torgue ARs over Dahl, Tediore, Maliwan, and Bandit SMGs.

#15

I think that AR needed to be a more accurate and powerful gun than the SMG. I see SMG like a point and hold the trigger weapon, with high fire rate and elemental power. They usually waste a clip to kill what they are aiming for, this is why they have a huge ammo pool.
Just to compare, Snipers are the one shot one kill guns, where you have to carefully aim for the crit spot to make it work. This is why it has a small amo pool. They make you feel some reward to play more accurate. See the head pop with one shot is amazing.
The AR have to be between this. Not a fully automatic gun in the shadow of the SMG, but a more rewarding gun. Something to be used for sustained combat, where you need to aim, shot and handle the recoil before shooting again. Something that kills more than one Scav with a full magazine, with a more slow reload speed and fire rate than the SMG.
Something like, dunno, the great Bekah? Also, the only automatic AR should be the Vladof ones.

#16

But they already are. Higher base damage than SMG. Comparable accuracy, fire rate, and recoil.

#17

I never said we can’t consider uniques and legendaries. But using only those weapons you listed in your first post to say that the class is fine didn’t seem right to me. There are dozens of ARs in the game, and the ones you listed are not typical ARs.

To your third point, your average SMG will have a faster fire rate than most ARs and have a bigger clip, which will indirectly increase their elemental effect chance. ARs are more difficult to use from a distance because of the recoil. Their increased base damage doesn’t do much good when they are the only class of weapons that deals negative crit, as they lose out on a lot of damage simply because crits count for less (and honestly, in what way does it make sense for a player to be penalized with less damage on a crit just becuase they use an AR).

There just isn’t any plausible reason for these differences to exist between the two. AR have no real role.

For example, take an all bandit parts AR and an all bandit parts SMG. The SMG may do less damage, but the rifle will have terrible accuracy, almost the same fire rate, lower elemental effect chance, and a far longer reload speed.

An all dahl part carbine will do more damage than all dahl part SMG, but the clip will be smaller, it will be less accurate when hip fired, and the fire rate will be slower when hip firing.

Torgue and Jakobs are in a league of their own when it comes to ARs, but vladofs can be compared to bandit SMGs. When taking all of the parts into consideration, I don’t know if the majority of vladof ARs can outperform a bandit SMG (there’s no gearcalc that I’m aware of to check with).

Still, when comparing the SMGs and ARs of the only 2 manufactures who make both, it tough to make an argument for the AR. I suppose it depends a bit on build and character, but for the most part, if I’m leveling, I’m never taking an AR that isn’t torgue or Jakobs unless I’m going through dire gear draughts. The negatives just aren’t worth it. At end game they can be covered up a bit better, but still not enough for my liking.

#19

I agree with those who say that ARs were much better all round in BL1 than they are in BL2. ARs were my weapon of choice in BL1 but for most of the game in BL2 the only reason to keep an AR was in case you ran out of ammo with something else. There was nothing an AR could do in BL2 that another weapon couldn’t do better and no situation that made an AR the weapon of choice.

This changed finally when I got a Torgue Plump Rifle and the added explosive damage finally made the AR worth having, but by then I was already OP2. And I now have a Kerblaster which does decent damage, at a high cost of ammo and very slow bullets. Gearbox nerfed ARs in BL2 the same way they nerfed drop rates. Why, I have no idea, because in BL1 both drop rates and ARs were superb.

SMGs in BL2 are vastly superior to ARs for the most part. For me there’s no comparison, with some exceptions already noted. ARs are a pale shadow of their former excellence

#20

Higher base damage is exactly why negative crit impacts it less. Clearly, the developers were trying to strike a middle ground between Sniper Rifles and SMGs that required incentive towards using Sniper Rifles rather than just run around with an AR all the time. I’m not saying I agree with it but it is what it is. It still hits harder than an SMG and less than a Sniper.

Even a comparison using Gear Calc of BL2 weapons is helpful. Just comparing Vladof ARs (normal Vladof barrel) and Bandit SMGs using all manufacturer parts you will see that the Vladof has higher base damage, similar accuracy, much higher fire rate, faster reload speed, and about half the magazine capacity. Again, saying the SMG is always the clear winner just isn’t accurate.

#21

I did say depending a bit on build and character.

Still, in most cases, it seems to me like the SMG wins. Even if they have similar stats, all it takes to kill an assault rifle is to get any stock other than dahl (especially Jakobs and Torgue to a lesser extent) and have to deal with the ridiculous recoil. A lot of shots will just miss if you don’t walk around aiming down sights or get within shotgun range.

Not always the winner, but most of the time so long as it isn’t competing with Jakobs or Torgue.

#22

They could just remove the type C crit and let us just handle the recoil properly and use the AR effectively. The only regular ARs that I have used in all my BL hours of play are the Jakobs Gatling Gun and some Torgue ones while I found Hyperion and Maliwan SMG really useful through the game. Even Bandits/Scavs and Dahl are useful.
Not talking about the amazing E-Tech SMGs in BL2.

1 Like