Flicker boosts the chance to apply elemental effects ONLY on GUNS and their splashes

peddroelm · July 18, 2019, 10:46am

Flicker doesn’t apply to ruin(guaranteed elemental effects) /helios/scorn etc … ONLY GUNs and their splashes !

(More pep (gaige), Fuel the Fire(kill skill krieg), Cold War (wilhelm TPS), Chronicler of Elpis COM TPS are some example of more general elemental chance boosts that apply both to guns and EVERYTHING else, everything of the appropriate element damage type in short) These types of bonuses are placed in a different term of the chance to apply elemental effect formula.

Scorn vs Dummy
3x 30% chances to slag and forth hit rolling at 1x60% chance to slag. (5/5 flicker irrelevant)

# Damage Type =          SLAG ; ElementalMul = 1.00000; ( GrenadeMul = 1.14080 ); address =   17228C18 
# vsHealthorArmorMul 1.00; Intermediary Damage Value 4510.43798828  
  621388156  9822888.000 Max   9818378.000 Cur  9822888.000 Prev     4510.000 Damage   4E55A018 baseaddress            Psycho vsHealthOrArmor       621388156 
# Chance to trigger effect 1.0000 * 30.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 = 0.3000  
# Damage Type =          SLAG ; ElementalMul = 1.00000; ( GrenadeMul = 1.14080 ); address =   17228C18 
# vsHealthorArmorMul 0.50; Intermediary Damage Value 13531.31445313  
        203  9822888.000 Max   9816122.000 Cur  9822888.000 Prev     6766.000 Damage   4E55A018 baseaddress            Psycho vsHealthOrArmor       621388359 
# Chance to trigger effect 1.0000 * 30.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 = 0.3000  
# Damage Type =          SLAG ; ElementalMul = 1.00000; ( GrenadeMul = 1.14080 ); address =   17228C18 
# vsHealthorArmorMul 0.50; Intermediary Damage Value 13531.31445313  
         16  9822888.000 Max   9810993.000 Cur  9817759.000 Prev     6766.000 Damage   4E55A018 baseaddress            Psycho vsHealthOrArmor       621388375 
# Chance to trigger effect 1.0000 * 30.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 = 0.3000  
# Damage Type =          SLAG ; ElementalMul = 1.00000; ( GrenadeMul = 1.14080 ); address =   17228C18 
# vsHealthorArmorMul 0.50; Intermediary Damage Value 276.62402344  
         31  9822888.000 Max   9812492.000 Cur  9812630.000 Prev      138.000 Damage   4E55A018 baseaddress            Psycho vsHealthOrArmor       621388406 
# Chance to trigger effect 1.0000 * 30.0000 * 1.0000 * 2.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 = 0.6000

Maliwan Snider NO Flicker vs dummy ; almost 90% to slag both impact and splash

# Normal Hit = 26560.19922; using          Snider; Scaled Base Gun Damage (CARD) = 23282.03906 ; Sum of Additive Gun Damage Multiplier    0.14080 (beware AMP SHIELD)  
# Damage Type =          SLAG ; ElementalMul = 1.00000; ( GrenadeMul = 1.14080 ); address =   17228C18 
# vsHealthorArmorMul 1.00; Intermediary Damage Value 26560.19921875  
     203125  9822888.000 Max   9796328.000 Cur  9822888.000 Prev    26560.000 Damage   4E55A018 baseaddress            Psycho vsHealthOrArmor       622133531 
# Chance to trigger effect 1.0000 * 30.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.9966 * 1.5000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 = 0.8985  
# Damage Type =          SLAG ; ElementalMul = 1.00000; ( GrenadeMul = 1.14080 ); address =   17228C18 
# vsHealthorArmorMul 0.50; Intermediary Damage Value 39840.29687500  
         15  9822888.000 Max   9776408.000 Cur  9796328.000 Prev    19920.000 Damage   4E55A018 baseaddress            Psycho vsHealthOrArmor       622133546 
# Chance to trigger effect 1.0000 * 30.0000 * 1.0000 * 2.9950 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 = 0.8985

Maliwan Snider With 5/5 Flicker vs dummy ; ABOVE 100% to slag both impact and splash

# Normal Hit = 26560.19922; using          Snider; Scaled Base Gun Damage (CARD) = 23282.03906 ; Sum of Additive Gun Damage Multiplier    0.14080 (beware AMP SHIELD)  
# Damage Type =          SLAG ; ElementalMul = 1.00000; ( GrenadeMul = 1.14080 ); address =   17228C18 
# vsHealthorArmorMul 1.00; Intermediary Damage Value 26560.19921875  
      21578  9822888.000 Max   9796328.000 Cur  9822888.000 Prev    26560.000 Damage   4E55A018 baseaddress            Psycho vsHealthOrArmor       621930390 
# Chance to trigger effect 1.0000 * 30.0000 * 1.0000 * 2.5231 * 1.5000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 = 1.1354  
# Damage Type =          SLAG ; ElementalMul = 1.00000; ( GrenadeMul = 1.14080 ); address =   17228C18 
# vsHealthorArmorMul 0.50; Intermediary Damage Value 39840.29687500  
         16  9822888.000 Max   9776408.000 Cur  9796328.000 Prev    19920.000 Damage   4E55A018 baseaddress            Psycho vsHealthOrArmor       621930406 
# Chance to trigger effect 1.0000 * 30.0000 * 1.0000 * 3.7847 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 = 1.1354

Analysis of the F4 parameter in the chance to apply elemental effect for the snider test.

1.755 is the base chance to apply elemental effect on the Snider used in the test : On the weapon's card the chance to apply slag should show up as 30 * 1.755 * 1.5= 78.975 (rare case where UI lies a bit more than the usual rounding error)

0.137684584 was the BAR bonus chance to apply elemental effect

So 1.755 * ( 1 + 0.137684584 )= 1.9966… F4 parameter in the test without flicker
and 1.755 * (1 + 0.137684584 + 5 * 0.06 ) =2.523136… F4 parameter in the test with 5/5 flicker

Weapon used for tests

… some people can calculate this base chance to apply elemental effect looking at the weapon’s parts (I can’t) …
((1 + 0.1 + 0.25) * (1 + 0.15 + 0.15)) = 1.755

Nice to have a weapon with guaranteed chance to slag per bullet vs targets of equal level.

peddroelm · July 18, 2019, 11:56am

Like Ruin, Helios is guaranteed to apply elemental effect. F4 is literally over 9000

# Damage Type =          FIRE ; ElementalMul = 1.00000; ( GrenadeMul = 1.14080 ); address =   1A8B8C18 
# vsHealthorArmorMul 1.75; Intermediary Damage Value 129675.08593750  
  625859078   783746.750 Max    556815.375 Cur   783746.750 Prev   226931.375 Damage   19585018 baseaddress          Pup Skag vsHealthOrArmor       625859078 
# Chance to trigger effect 1.0000 * 30.0000 * 1.0000 * 9001.0000 * 1.0000 * 0.9000 * 0.4437 * 1.0000 * 1.3855 * 1.0000 = 1493.8631  
# Damage Type =          FIRE ; ElementalMul = 1.00000; ( GrenadeMul = 1.14080 ); address =   1A8B8C18 
# vsHealthorArmorMul 1.75; Intermediary Damage Value 129675.08593750  
         15  2946866.250 Max   2719934.750 Cur  2946866.250 Prev   226931.500 Damage   516C2098 baseaddress      Spitter Skag vsHealthOrArmor       625859093 
# Chance to trigger effect 1.0000 * 30.0000 * 1.0000 * 9001.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.3855 * 1.0000 = 3741.2655

Had Cunning Fox COM with extra ~39% ignite chance equipped (see F9 but this doesn’t actually matter for helios DOT)…

back-draft melee attack 5/5 reached > 100% chance to inflame partly due to the COM, but where there other factors ? YES 5/5 F4= 3.25 10/5 F4 = 5.5 (flicker 5/5 or 10/5 no difference here as expected) F4 = 1 + 0.45 of skill rank

# Melee Damage Done By Player; Player's Melee Additive(sum) Damage Multiplier = 0.43768;  
# Damage Type = NON-ELEMENTAL ; ElementalMul = 1.00000; ( GrenadeMul = 1.14080 ); address =   1A8B8C18 
# vsHealthorArmorMul 1.00; Intermediary Damage Value 243172.00000000  
       4094  1723446.125 Max   1480274.125 Cur  1723446.125 Prev   243172.000 Damage   1958C958 baseaddress        Adult Skag vsHealthOrArmor       626206906 
# Damage Type =          FIRE ; ElementalMul = 1.00000; ( GrenadeMul = 1.14080 ); address =   1A8B8C18 
# vsHealthorArmorMul 1.75; Intermediary Damage Value 38902.52734375  
         15  1723446.125 Max   1412194.750 Cur  1480274.125 Prev    68079.375 Damage   1958C958 baseaddress        Adult Skag vsHealthOrArmor       626206921 
# Chance to trigger effect 1.0000 * 30.0000 * 1.0000 * 3.2500 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.3855 * 1.0000 = 1.3509

blight phoenix 5/5 pretty hopeless at applying DOTs

# Damage Type =     CORROSIVE ; ElementalMul = 1.31200; ( GrenadeMul = 1.14080 ); address =   1A8B8C18 
# vsHealthorArmorMul 0.60; Intermediary Damage Value 22826.24023438  
        437  2585169.250 Max   2567195.000 Cur  2580890.750 Prev    13695.750 Damage   47D7C818 baseaddress      Spitter Skag vsHealthOrArmor       626598718 
# Chance to trigger effect 1.0000 * 15.0000 * 1.0000 * 0.4000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 0.7500 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 = 0.0450  
# Damage Type =     CORROSIVE ; ElementalMul = 1.31200; ( GrenadeMul = 1.14080 ); address =   1A8B8C18 
# vsHealthorArmorMul 0.60; Intermediary Damage Value 23818.72070313  
         32  9822888.000 Max   9757192.000 Cur  9771483.000 Prev    14291.000 Damage   4FCD0F18 baseaddress        Alpha Skag vsHealthOrArmor       626598750 
# Chance to trigger effect 1.0000 * 15.0000 * 1.0000 * 0.4000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 0.9840 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 = 0.0590  
# Damage Type =          FIRE ; ElementalMul = 1.00000; ( GrenadeMul = 1.14080 ); address =   1A8B8C18 
# vsHealthorArmorMul 1.75; Intermediary Damage Value 16452.50781250  
         15  2585169.250 Max   2538403.000 Cur  2567195.000 Prev    28792.000 Damage   47D7C818 baseaddress      Spitter Skag vsHealthOrArmor       626598765 
# Chance to trigger effect 1.0000 * 30.0000 * 1.0000 * 0.4000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 0.7500 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 = 0.0900  
# Damage Type =          FIRE ; ElementalMul = 1.00000; ( GrenadeMul = 1.14080 ); address =   1A8B8C18 
# vsHealthorArmorMul 1.75; Intermediary Damage Value 18154.51171875  
         16  9822888.000 Max   9725422.000 Cur  9757192.000 Prev    31770.000 Damage   4FCD0F18 baseaddress        Alpha Skag vsHealthOrArmor       626598781 
# Chance to trigger effect 1.0000 * 30.0000 * 1.0000 * 0.4000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 0.9840 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 = 0.1181

Immolate ... BOY DOES IT DOUBLE DIP ON THE DAMAGE SIDE

11/5 immolate (110%) vs slagged with 4/5 Reaper (32%)

# Damage Type =          FIRE ; ElementalMul = 1.00000; ( GrenadeMul = 1.14080 ); address =   1A8B8C18 
# vsHealthorArmorMul 1.75; Intermediary Damage Value 142222.01562500  
       5500  2946866.250 Max   2697977.750 Cur  2946866.250 Prev   248888.500 Damage   195885D8 baseaddress      Spitter Skag vsHealthOrArmor       627357375 
# Damage Type =          FIRE ; ElementalMul = 1.00000; ( GrenadeMul = 1.14080 ); address =   1A8B8C18 
# vsHealthorArmorMul 1.75; Intermediary Damage Value 821332.12500000  
         15  2946866.250 Max   1260646.500 Cur  2697977.750 Prev  1437331.250 Damage   195885D8 baseaddress      Spitter Skag vsHealthOrArmor       627357390 
# Chance to trigger effect 1.0000 * 30.0000 * 1.0000 * 0.9704 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 0.2559 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 = 0.0745

Calculations/Verification

35914.65234 Normal Hit (base weapon * additives)

// normal hit vs slagged with 4/5 reaper
35914.65234 * 1.32 * 3 = 142222.023266

// normal hit vs slagged flesh (fire) Actual Weapon impact damage inflicted (with 4/5 reaper)
35914.65234 * 1.32 * 3 * 1.75 = 248888.540716

(35914.65234 * 1.32 * 3 * 1.75) * 1.1 * 3 = 821332.184363

// 11/5 immolate with 4/5 reaper fire vs slagged flesh damage inflicted
(35914.65234 * 1.32 * 3 * 1.75) * 1.1 * 3 * 1.75 = 1437331.32264

Notice the vs slagged *3 ^ 2 and firevsflesh * 1.75 ^ 2 . Immolate be crazy AND BENEFITS FROM REAPER
weapon impact damage * 1.1 * 3 * 1.75 = weapon impact damage * 5.775 !!!

Cloudkill is terrible at triggering DOT, but does plenty of damage regardless

# Normal Hit = 33544.81250; using          Snider; Scaled Base Gun Damage (CARD) = 23282.03906 ; Sum of Additive Gun Damage Multiplier    0.44080 (beware AMP SHIELD)  
# Damage Type =          SLAG ; ElementalMul = 1.00000; ( GrenadeMul = 1.14080 ); address =   3CBFC418 
# vsHealthorArmorMul 1.00; Intermediary Damage Value 60380.66015625  
    1527953  9822888.000 Max   9762507.000 Cur  9822888.000 Prev    60381.000 Damage   1971A298 baseaddress            Psycho vsHealthOrArmor       629046234 
# vsHealthorArmorMul 0.60; Intermediary Damage Value 32.00000000  
         16  9822888.000 Max   9762488.000 Cur  9762507.000 Prev       19.000 Damage   1971A298 baseaddress            Psycho vsHealthOrArmor       629046250 
# Chance to trigger effect 1.0000 * 15.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 = 0.1500  
# Chance to trigger effect 1.0000 * 30.0000 * 1.0000 * 2.5231 * 1.5000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 = 1.1354  
# Damage Type =          SLAG ; ElementalMul = 1.00000; ( GrenadeMul = 1.14080 ); address =   3CBFC418 
# vsHealthorArmorMul 0.50; Intermediary Damage Value 90570.99218750  
         15  9822888.000 Max   9717203.000 Cur  9762488.000 Prev    45285.000 Damage   1971A298 baseaddress            Psycho vsHealthOrArmor       629046265 
# Chance to trigger effect 1.0000 * 30.0000 * 1.0000 * 3.7847 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 = 1.1354  
# Damage Type =     CORROSIVE ; ElementalMul = 1.31200; ( GrenadeMul = 1.14080 ); address =   3CBFC418 
# vsHealthorArmorMul 0.60; Intermediary Damage Value 816641.87500000  
        235  9822888.000 Max   9252843.000 Cur  9742828.000 Prev   489985.000 Damage   1971A298 baseaddress            Psycho vsHealthOrArmor       629046500 
# Chance to trigger effect 1.0000 * 15.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 = 0.1500  
# Damage Type =     CORROSIVE ; ElementalMul = 1.31200; ( GrenadeMul = 1.14080 ); address =   3CBFC418 
# vsHealthorArmorMul 0.60; Intermediary Damage Value 816641.87500000  
        250  9822888.000 Max   8789328.000 Cur  9279313.000 Prev   489985.000 Damage   1971A298 baseaddress            Psycho vsHealthOrArmor       629046750 
# Chance to trigger effect 1.0000 * 15.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 = 0.1500  
# Damage Type =     CORROSIVE ; ElementalMul = 1.31200; ( GrenadeMul = 1.14080 ); address =   3CBFC418 
# vsHealthorArmorMul 0.60; Intermediary Damage Value 816641.87500000  
        250  9822888.000 Max   8324921.000 Cur  8814906.000 Prev   489985.000 Damage   1971A298 baseaddress            Psycho vsHealthOrArmor       629047000 
# Chance to trigger effect 1.0000 * 15.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 = 0.1500  
# Damage Type =     CORROSIVE ; ElementalMul = 1.31200; ( GrenadeMul = 1.14080 ); address =   3CBFC418 
# vsHealthorArmorMul 0.60; Intermediary Damage Value 816641.87500000  
        234  9822888.000 Max   7858870.000 Cur  8348855.000 Prev   489985.000 Damage   1971A298 baseaddress            Psycho vsHealthOrArmor       629047234 
# Chance to trigger effect 1.0000 * 15.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 * 1.0000 = 0.1500

Snider was used to slag & trigger cloudkill = death sentence to most enemies in UVHM

Rumplebunny · July 18, 2019, 1:46pm

The skill description does specify guns, so it’s actually not lying this time, however we all know how skill descriptions can be a little misleading or poorly worded sometimes so it’s nice to see some science.

peddroelm · July 18, 2019, 1:56pm

exactly … But then I saw people testing scorn with flicker in this closed thread and decided to set it straight …

Rumplebunny · July 18, 2019, 2:00pm

Yep in BL the rule should be, you never quite know what’s boosted or not without actually testing first, despite what descriptions say.

swk3000 · July 18, 2019, 8:42pm

Normally I’d agree with you, but the damage caused by Phaselock when you can’t lift the target is boosted by Roid shields, even though it’s clearly not a melee attack, and Grenade damage boosts increase the damage of Tediore reloads even though no skill says it does. Because of the way video games work, things may work that you wouldn’t expect, so everything is worth testing.