YOUR BUILD SUCKS!...But It's not your fault

Borderlands 2 BL2 General Discussion
#1

A Brief History of Violence

For many years we’ve all been playing this awesome game and the community has seen many changes and evolutions over time. Over this time a lot of people have come up, famously with tons upon tons of builds! As time has gone on players and even the game itself has evolved, but the biggest change has really occurred with the Unofficial Community Patch. The skill changes fundamentally changed the way certain build worked, by changing and improving skills that were underwhelming or almost unusable in the past. That in a way re-birthed BL2 itself. The UCP was an absolute blessing and I thank whole hardly everyone involved for their hard work, innovation, and dedication. Unfortunately an older mentality still exist in build construction even with the augmentation of the skills. I also feel like this old mentality has shaped the manner in which skills were augmented. This is one of the few games in history, especially on the market now that has such a vast loot system, and even more rare that it is not PvP. But in watching builds and gear over the years the community is still crippled with the same 30-40 pieces of gear tops (ROUGH ESTIMATE), when there are literally thousands of different options to choose from. These choices aren’t the fault of the players, but the fundamental flaws of different characters and their skills. With a few challenges, input from other players, and testing I have concluded that a lot of builds don’t hold up without extremely specific gear, and that’s a problem. But let me stress again, it’s not the player’s fault, but a fault of design. So I believe that buffing or even possibly retooling (if possible) some skills will not only greatly change the way people build/play their characters, but what gear they use to play this game.

For those who are new i proposed 2 different challenges in the forums previous to this thread, which I will post below. My conclusion is if your build doesn’t hold up to this challenge, it’s not a good build. The purpose of all of this is to get accurate data of what skills are working and which skills need improvement. Of course this is a community effort so feel free to express any input, but the true point of this thread for me is to help the UCP with proper insight, and I don’t think that is possible without a solid foundation. So I request the community test your builds with the challenge, post your results, and offer your input on what skills you feel need help if at all. Good Luck!


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#2

I like the idea of this, but is there any skills the UCP didn’t fix? It fixed axton completely except swapping crisis management and resourceful was a bad change imo, but the way they changed crisis management was good.

They made sal’s brawn tree viable at op8.

On a note i can’t participate since i don’t have any max level characters on ps4 yet, but i had 4 on ps3

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#3

What? I don’t understand a word you try to say someone please give me a tl;dr

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#4

Agree, but I’d go with way less than 30 :laughing:

Disagree: definitely player’s fault. If the game, even sans UCP, was incapable of allowing players to finish the story with only these min/maxed, ultimate-loadout things, I’d agree. The entire first and second playthroughs don’t need that; it’s only when you get to UVHM where players can’t coast along on some DoT and their good looks that they begin leaning on this gear. By the time they get to the OP levels, their combat styles and builds are totally based around using these.

Even if I concede that the higher OP levels do need this ultimate gear, this is only a fraction of the entire game, and an optional one at that (designed specifically for the super high difficulty), so it seems disingenuous to judge the entire game on this.

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#5

Here’s the problem in a nutshell : it’s assumed the game is to be played at OP8. That’s the level that does indeed winnow out a lot of great gear.

A lot of people think OP8 is too hard, so they stay at 72.
I think 72 is too easy for me.
@Adabiviak , @Hattie and I are the only ones I can think of that vary the OP levels : typically play OP3-4 which is a sweet spot for general difficulty and still being able to use 2nd & 3rd tier weapons.

I play my Jakobs Zer0 at OP2 ; Backdraft Maya and roid Krieg at OP3 ; Jakobs Sal & hybrid Zer0 at OP4 ; Axton at OP6 ; Gaige at OP7 ; SS Maya and melee Zer0 at OP8. I have others at OP8, but tend not to play them.

That might seem ridiculous, but that’s a simple way to make my builds work. And they work great.

Perhaps the problem is co-op : OP8 has become the standard , and if you want to play co-op you have to get there.

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#6

Not even a little - I’m pretty sure the OP levels were built with exactly this sort of thing in mind.

While I park my characters at lower OP levels, they’ve all graduated OP8 (except Krieg). To play co op, I just dig some OP8 gear out of Roland’s old vault and join in.

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#7

A little aside here as I wave my finger of shame at the players who just want someone to power level them up from level 1 to OP8 without understanding and learning their characters, builds, and gear, and then complain the game is too hard at OP8. Earn your stripes soldier! :smiley:

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#8

@Adabiviak

That’s still the issue. The problem isn’t damage output at OP levels, because your damage output (in theory) scales up with you as you level up. This is especially true gear wise. I’m not just judging the lack of proper skill scaling on OP levels. Natural character progression through NVHM and TVHM doesn’t necessarily allow you to coast, as so much play and learn the game. When UVHM and the OP levels were created it didn’t seem like certain skills were taken into account when enemy health and damage was increased. This is especially true in the OP levels with damage reduction. That’s why the patches Gearbox sent out tried to address these issues. Damage output isn’t really the issue in UVHM or the OP levels it’s survival. A lot of survival skills didn’t scale very well or weren’t taken into consideration when they really upped the enemy’s damage output. This wasn’t really properly addressed until the UCP. This is why Moxxi abuse was/ and still is so prevalent. It is the result of an unaddressed systemic issue with improperly scaled health skills. Some characters suffered more than other with the lack of properly scaled survival skills. That’s why I feel like it’s an issue only playing even less than 30 peices of gear in a game with literally thousands of different options. I understand specialization, but that still shouldn’t narrow valuable gear down that much.

@Piemanlee But Gaige was left largely without any real survival buffs. But here issues are another topic entirely. The Same goes with Zero and Kreig to some extent. That’s why I encourage people the play the Ultimate Badass Vault Hunter Challenge to really highlight how reliant the community has become on such a small amount of gear and builds.

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#9

I know very little about gaige, except that blood soaked shields is amazing.
Krieg has more survivability than any character and zero is meant to be a glass cannon

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#10

I think they were taken into consideration, but this was the plan, not an omission. UVHM gave us an opportunity to play at levels where some of these mechanics do break as part of the ultimate difficulty when we venture into levels where we “shouldn’t” be.

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#11

I’m honestly not convinced that one follows on from the other here. Yes, some skills suffer at the OP levels and especially at OP8 survival becomes more difficult so you feel it more. This isn’t just a question of scaling; OP8 demands certain survival skills more than others, and one of the reasons I don’t play up there much these days (I followed Ad and headed to OP3) is because health gating is such an emphasis.

But I’m not convinced that’s the reason people feel the need to rely on Moxxi. It’s just easier to do that. There’s nothing wrong with that, the Grog and its ilk are useful shortcuts, but OP8 is definitely manageable without them.

I find OP3 a lot more liberating because using the OP levels as a difficulty slider actually gets around the scaling problems that do develop from UVHM. But there’s still huge potential for diversification at OP8 beyond the ‘YouTube meta’ and I see great egs of that all the time around here.

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#12

@Adabiviak I see what you mean. The OP level do allow you to fight enemies that you “shouldn’t” be fighting simply because they are scaled well above your level. That does add a fair amount of difficulty to play at those levels. What I meant when I made the statement about survival skills not scaling well is that they don’t feel like they were created with OP levels in mind. I feel like the additional skill points added with the release of UVHM and the OP levels was an attempt to deal the increased difficulty with more options of what skills and build characters can use, not necessarily gear. Ultimately I believe if certain skills, especially survival ones were adjusted it would change fundamentally what a player can do and what gear they can use. Because you’d be hard pressed to find some who is playing OP8 with a Melee Zero or Krieg who ISN’T using Moxxi weapons. That’s why a purposed the challenges above. To help highlight the amount of reliance a lot of players may not know they have on what is ultimately a very small amount of gear, in a game with a massive loot system.

@Hattie Health gating being such an emphasis does make things more difficult in the higher OP levels. But I feel like emphasis on health gating wasn’t the intention of the higher OP levels, it’s just the work around that the community developed as a result of survival not properly scaling. I believe the same goes with Moxxi weapon usage as well. Now I do know people will still use Moxxi weapons for their healing concerns simply because it is easier, but I still think there is a general mentality that certain builds, (Melee Kreig and Melee Zero) specifically can’t function without Moxxi weapons, and I haven’t been able to find anyone who’s doing so otherwise, or even anyone playing at the OP levels without any Moxxi use. And I believe this is the result of survival being stunted on actual character skills and not just solely on people wanting to make things easier. I do appreciate your input though. I had forgotten about Health gating emphasis. I do have question though. What characters do you play as primarily and have the tried out the challenges above?

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#13

My Krieg has been using a melee spec for … well, forever, and he hasn’t touched a Moxxi weapon since TVHM. He’s currently at OP6.
By the way, apart from a single donation (level 52 Hornet (Dahl grip and sight! Can’t remember which accessory, though) from a friend, when I repeatedly died to the tier 3 buzzard battle in the Forge) he did it all solo, too.
When Melee Krieg is really doing his assigned work, most of the time he’s holstered his guns in favor of the axe. In that case, it doesn’t matter if the gun has Moxxi’s signature on it or not. He survives on Release the Beast’s instant full heal (plus ~3 seconds of invulnerability, though he can’t attack during that time either due to the transformation animation) and his action skill’s standard full heal on melee kills. Some builds also add Thrill of the Kill into the mix, for healing off other kills (mostly through Bloodsplosion; it would work on out-of-rampage kills too, but those are pretty rare in my experience). Oh, and Elemental Elation from the Hellborn tree could be reached as well, though I’ve never put a point into that tree yet.

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#14

And that’s the reason Krieg is such a beast! Lol! He was created after UVHM was released and it shows in the utility in those skill across three different trees. Awesome you’re able to play him so well and without Moxxi guns. It sounds like you know your Krieg stuff. Thanks for clarifying. I do have a request though. Could you please post the specs of the build you use, and maybe some footage of you using it. Also really test your build’s strength with the challenge listed above. It will definitely help you fine tune it. Especially if you don’t use Moxxi weapons. Lastly do you know anyone that runs a Melee Zero build without Moxxi weapons?

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#15

This is an Innervate-only run ( not strictly melee though. Actually it’s even more badass as melee players can at least get additional healing from Resurgence & MMF )

This is an anomaly though - I don’t know anyone else ( except maybe @SomeRandomGuy11 ) who runs that way.

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#16

That’s a great term right there!

Crapload of people are playing builds that successful youtubers or streamers used. Granted, a lot of them are great and tested builds but it’s not like they are the only ones.

I’m not the one being asked but I’d bet the level 50 frameworks would look something like this. It doesn’t leave you a whole lot of wiggle room if you want to insert it into your UBA challenge. This reminds me that I never checked out Khimerakillers videos in that thread and I should do so.

http://bl2skills.com/psycho.html#50500015030050500005145100000000000

Saying it like this kind of bothers me. If it’s changed to a level 50 version then some tools will be missed by every character and it’s not the same build anymore. It’s a different build specifically for the challenge.

I think the problem is people’s egos. Everyone wants to play at the baddest difficulty possible so it became the standard. That nicely coined “youtube meta” comes into play here too.

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#17

I mean I didn’t and don’t use Moxxi weapon on my melee runs, and i think the vast majority of melee Kriegs don’t use Moxxi weapons after they get the Law & Order.

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#18

Melee Krieg only needs a Slag weapon. He don’t need a Moxxi, a Maya is what he wants. :rofl::rofl:

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#19

I’m sure none of the skills were created with the OP levels in mind.

It would, but what survival skills are you talking about specifically (and what would you change)?

I do, but your experience may vary; he’s a Vladof allegiance:

  • He’s got Moxxi weapons in his arsenal, but when he’s in melee mode, he’s using the Rapier (arguably the opposite of a Moxxi gun, given the curse). He’s got a Kitten and a Hail at his disposal, but only uses them for healing during gun-based combat.
  • I don’t use Roid shields and have Grim on deck keeping my health bar intact, so few things hit my health bar before I’m switching to defense.
  • I’m using the UCP, in which the healing from Innervate and Resurgence are buffed a little.
  • I play at OP3, not OP8.
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#20

I believe boreshot has a dp no-moxxie melee run. I remember being suprised by how much hp regain you actually get from resurgence. I think it was boreshot.

There really isn’t. There’s thousands of droogs, but a droog is a droog is a droog, it’s the same exact gun with maybe a 15% variance of stats, and lyuda is strictly the best. There aren’t all that many truly unique guns in bl2, and that number is greatly increased by the guns with special properties, which incidentally are the guns that would be irreplaceable in supposedly not good builds.

To me, a ‘build’ includes gear, without it it’s just stat point allocation. If the entire loadout is replaceable it’s just a ‘build that shoots’, it doesn’t do anything interesting with gear-to-gear and gear-to-stats synergy. I haven’t been watching the scene all that much in recent years, but the latest ‘new cool thing’ I saw was bew’s slowhand/fastball hybrid zero thing. What skillpoints he specced is not the interesting part of it and is pretty standard, it’s how the gear works together and how that informs and enables the playstyle that’s unique. That’s a great build. I’d say it’s the special properties of irreplaceable gear that makes building in bl2 interesting to begin with.

If you want to increase build variety, go for the spear-point of a skillbuild, the com. At least for zero, there’s so many useless, redundant and nonsensical coms. Create interesting combinations of skills that people can ~double the efficiency of. I’ve posted this before, so I’ll just reuse that:

(I haven’t followed the UCP development so I don’t know what has been done with this)

Also, I side with the people saying OP is broken by design. It takes the properties of enemies you weren’t meant to approach in the basegame and lets you say ‘I want that, on everything’. Consequently, balancing around OP8 is misguided, balance around 72. While it has the strange quirk of ‘beating harder difficulties to unlock easier ones’, people can ‘retune’ for ‘inferior gear’ or ‘less efficient builds’ by lowering OP again. Must say it’s rather ingenious the ratio of added endgame playtime for development cost gearbox pulled off with it.

Maybe. Like I said in my linked post, if you buff the innervate healing by a lot, it could let some people drop the grog. But buff it too much, and you make resurgence redundant. Resurgence requires you to go on the offensive for health back, that is way more interesting than just going into deception behind a bush to heal.

Another consideration is that moxxies are a tradeoff, remove their impact and they’ll just be replaced with yet another effective damage dealer. So instead of making a gear concession to pad weaknesses, a top tier damage dealer is just slotted in. That’s less interesting, not more. I don’t see people going ‘I’m more survivable now, so I’ll replace my lyuda with this wonky parted green droog’.

So, instead of buffing innervate healing for all builds, you could remodel a com to give points in innervate, and thus get better innervate healing for some tradeoff (lower damage, longer cooldown), and people have an actual choice to make. Create interesting sidegrades, don’t just buff survivability and hope people won’t pick the best as a result. The best place to do this is with the COMs IMO.

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