Is THIS Axton with this Legendary Soldier mod the most powerful Lvl.50 in the game?

Borderlands 2 Axton the Commando
#1

http://bl2skills.com/commando.html#05050100005122512115115200000000

I think he is

can’t imagine going through UVHM foes like they were NVHM dooshes at level 50 with this guy!

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#2

No. /thread.

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#3

will you at least offer a challenging character?

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#4

I think you need to define what you mean by “powerful”? Things get a little complicated for a number of reasons, even for something as apparently simple as comparing weapons of the same class. For example, there’s issues comparing raw damage versus sustained DPS (including reloads, DoT contributions, slag multipliers).

When comparing actual characters, this gets worse. For example, one character/buiid/loadout might do better (in terms of raw time-to-kill) mobbing, but perform worse against raid bosses. And then there are differences between different bosses anyway…

TL;DR - what are your criteria for assessing “most powerful”? And under what circumstances?

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#5

don’t know. Just generally and stuff

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#6

Then generally, I’d say “no”. I’ve run multiple builds of the different characters up to level 50. In terms of my ability to get them there and enjoy the process, they’ve all been pretty equal. Some things were easier with Maya, others with Axton, … Part of that is also preferred play-style (although I’ve enjoyed adapting my default style with different characters as I’ve got to know them better).

So overall, I’d say in my experience and from my perspective that the characters are pretty evenly matched at level 50. Sure, you can make builds that leave you weak and vulnerable, but there are multiple ways to create viable builds for each character at TVHM end-game. It all depends on what you want to do with them at that point - as I said, different raid bosses at that point are going to require different builds/strategies for different characters, so it’s a bit hard to generalise comparisons.

Edit to add: what really matters is if you enjoy your build and what you can do with that character. If it’s working for you and you’re having fun, then it’s a success. And I will say that the build looks pretty interesting - a bit different from the way I build a nuke Axton at level 50, but there’s always some flexibility at that point.

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#7

This.

If you define powerful as “how fast you bring down bosses” the answer is going to be different than if you define it as “how fast you can clear through a map” or “how much damage you can crank out in a time lapse” or “how often you go down” or “how easy it is to play” or … However else you want to define “powerful”.

All the characters are “Powerful enough” to do everything in the game, and they all have something they are the best at.

If you more precisely define your question, an answer would be possible.

Thought, no matter the ways to define it I can think of right now, Axton is rarely the answer.

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#8

“Who is the best Commando in the game?” And no, the answer is NOT “Salvador”! :stuck_out_tongue:

Joking aside, I do think Axton gets a bit of a raw deal. He’s really not that bad.

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#9

Yes, he is! :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:

Ronnie creates a diversion, and runs away before the turret gets a bead on him.

Seriously, though… I think it’s mostly a matter of who’s behind the controls on any of the characters. Understanding how to get the most out of a character will ALWAYS be the most important factor in matters such as this.

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#10

The thing with Axton is that his strength is balance: he’s not the best at anything, but he’s never the worst either.

So in a discussion of “who’s the best at X?” His name will rarely come up.

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#11

Well he is the best chucker

Also OT: when sal exist no other character can claim strongest build

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#12

Yeah, if you get into very specific things, everyone will have strong points. Axton is also the best explosive user.

As for Sal, at level 50, I’m not sure he’s so much better than the rest. For mobbing, I would pick Maya or Gaige first.

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#13
  • While it is extremely hard to pull off in raids, I’d say Krieg is the better Tediore reload character. The Javelineer absolutely trashes anything Axton can do while mobbing with ease. And if you’ve got the stacks, kill skills, and gear swapping; a min/max Krieg probably beats Axton in raids too.
    • With the exception of the explosive Fastball/Mirvs, I’d probably say grenades are Axton’s thing. No one can pump up the damage of grenades and have the sustainability he has. (Krieg’s Fuel the Blood isn’t practical at OP8 for mobbing.)
  • Even when it comes to explosive weapons Krieg is probably better. Axton has grenade damage, but Krieg has explosive damage and everything else. Plus the Harold is explosive, does that mean Sal wins? Axton’s minor synergy with certain Torgue weapons doesn’t mean he’s good with them. The Carnage is explosive, but gets no benefit from Axton for example.

While much of Sal’s power comes from the UVHM slag multiplier and his synergy with it, along with how he benefits two fold from the OP levels, I’d still give it to Sal hands down at level 50.

  • At that point I have Down Not Out and 5 points in Get Some
  • And Class mods now boost skills to +5 or +6

It’s just things die so fast it’s hard to hard to tell who has the power, but it’s still there.

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#14

Honestly, I think Sal’s power is sort of overrated. Thing is, alot of his ‘power’ is actually riding on critical damage transfer from his offhand, whether be it a Grog Nozzle or Lady Fist, which massively conflates his DPS. Sure, it is remarkably easy to pull off, but so is Flakhabbing and Shamfleeting - but that doesn’t make it any less of an exploit. Without such gimmicks, he is still a damn strong class, but more in line with the ‘DPS classes’ like Krieg and Zer0. Put it this way, transplant Sal to TPS and while he would still be one of the stronger classes, Athena, Nisha and even Jack would probably destroy him (except maybe Deputy builds).

As for Axton, I really enjoy playing him, but contrary to OP’s statement, objectively I feel he is the weakest of the 6 toons. His gun DPS is definitely the poorest, and he is unable to pull it off with great consistency unlike say Maya. His survivability is middle of the road, but having a ‘survival’ tree certainly does not make him a tank. His grenade build is really strong, but is predicated on one very overpowered grenade. And his ‘synergy’ with splash guns is always overstated - its really just 25% multiplicative on the base damage of the gun, independent of crit. That said, I feel this does not take away from him as a class. Axton is alot of fun because he has an excellent action skill, the best ‘pet’ skill in the franchise, and his weaknesses means that he encourages alot of player involvement and strategic thinking.

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#15

You seem caught up in the “best” min/max trap that we all likely fell into when we started the game…There is no best in BL2, only best for specific roles and scenarios and even then there’s usually alternatives and multiple good choices available…it’s one of many reasons why the game has such replayability and longevity

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#16
  • Yes and no. Even without the crit transfer he still has MS, NKLO, ammo mitigation, ammo regen, and the ability to MS chain because of that ammo mitigation. Not to mention other things that can transfer like life steal, etc…
  • Plus I consider things like life steal and crit transfer to be much less of an exploit than damage transfer. For one they are nowhere near as powerful, and two they can affect almost any damage source, making them much more fair overall. Damage transfer however only works with a half-a-dozen guns. And Shamfleeting isn’t an exploit as far as I’m concerned.

Funny you should say that, as Nisha really isn’t that powerful in the end of the day. Her only power comes from making things like rockets crit, and without something like a Lady Fist to transfer crit, it tends to be lacking.

But yeah, he is a “weapon makes the man” kind of character because of his action skill. So when you take away all of his staples (like literally all of them, he’d lose a lot more than just crit transfer options) he’s probably going to hurt, but I feel even without them he’d find a way to stand on top again.

If UVHM didn’t have health regen he could use grenades like the SF or BP (plus the element matching ones suck). But as its is now you just lose DPS if you aren’t going for the burst damage the FB provides.

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#17

I agree with @darreltan2004 that Sal’s OP nature comes from the offhand transfer and weapon merging that results. There’s a reason the weapon merging patch was employed in the game, but it applies during a gunzerk as the game can’t differentiate the two weapons and transfers abilities of one to the other…I don’t think it’s always critical damage transfer, sometimes it’s healing which is why you are so hard to kill with a Grog/Harold…

That said, I agree with @khimerakiller that Sal has plenty of good damage skills on his own which make him a strong choice, particularly with a Legendary Gunzerker mod that allows you to gunzerk indefinitely while mobbing and the ability to chain Money Shot on bosses

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#18

Plus I consider things like life steal and crit transfer to be much less of an exploit than damage transfer. For one they are nowhere near as powerful, and two they can affect almost any damage source, making them much more fair overall. Damage transfer however only works with a half-a-dozen guns. And Shamfleeting isn’t an exploit as far as I’m concerned.

In view of the Big Boom Blaster’s existance - as well as the gamemakers intention to make RL ammo a scarcity, Shamfleeting certainly is an exploit. And sure, crit transfer is not always as strong as RL glitch (though it very well can be if you swap to both a Grog and LF), but it still, as ChemicalConundrum pointed out, was clearly not intended by gamemakers - and gives Sal an honestly unfair advantage in DPS calcs (the grog nozzle has more crit than basically every class but a Killer/Sniper Zer0).

Yes and no. Even without the crit transfer he still has MS, NKLO, ammo mitigation, ammo regen, and the ability to MS chain because of that ammo mitigation. Not to mention other things that can transfer like life steal, etc…

Of course Sal will be by no means lacking in DPS - there are many strong builds out there that don’t rely on the Grog. But his power will be more in line with Zer0 and Krieg in mobbing for sure.

Funny you should say that, as Nisha really isn’t that powerful in the end of the day. Her only power comes from making things like rockets crit, and without something like a Lady Fist to transfer crit, it tends to be lacking.

Without her capability to make ‘non-crit’ weapons gain massive damage with TS, Nisha is still quite a monster. She just has so many damage skills and Unchained is pretty ridiculous. Sure, Athena would demolish her, but I don’t think its fair to use her as the standard XD. But yeah, alot of Nisha’s power is riding on this ‘auto-crit’ power with TS, which tbf I think is part of the gamemaker’s design (a poor choice nonetheless).

If UVHM didn’t have health regen he could use grenades like the SF or BP (plus the element matching ones suck). But as its is now you just lose DPS if you aren’t going for the burst damage the FB provides.

Even without the health regen, none of these grenades have the delivery mechanism and immediate stopping power of the FB. I mean, you can certainly run maps, but without the FB, I don’t think Grenade Axton will even be a thing.

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#19

But look at it just like that. Using any absorption shield besides the Sham is very unreliable, but when you do use a unique shield just like you do with the BBB, then it becomes viable. What I don’t think they anticipated was people using low level Torgue barrel ARs and Logan’s Guns. But at the end of the day I just personally don’t consider it an exploit.

And the BBB also regens grenades and some gear is just worse than others. Like the Punchee is just vastly inferior to the Hide or Terra.

True, but if we took away everything that was unintended, then I don’t even think Sal would be playable. He’d lose every special effect transfer, have no MS chaining, each hand would have a separate mag size requirement for MS, and he would be very squishy.

And a lot of the characters rely on “unintended” stuff to draw out a lot of their power, and some times even be viable.

  • Almost all of them take advantage of life steal transfer, which is a massive “unfair” advantage characters get over Maya and the other tanking trees. And melee Zer0 isn’t even playable without it.
  • Lots of characters take advantage of crit transfer, com swapping, relic swapping, etc… while the game is paused during raids. Not to mention fights like Pete and Vora with the Trespasser.
  • I’m pretty sure overlapping hit boxes with B0re was unintended.
  • Krieg takes advantage of the fact Tediore launchers don’t use ammo on reload.
  • The Fibber is basically un-penalized by Close Enough.
  • Immolation zombie Maya still exist.
  • Etc…

Everyone sets the bar for what is unintended at different places, but for me I think besides damage transfer, there isn’t much I don’t just see as just “part of the game”.

I think even then you might be overestimating her a bit. Would it be fair to say she would be pretty much bottom tier for bosses without TS? Because even past the rocket part, TS criting things like the humanoid Sentinel, the big Sentinel mask, EOS, etc… even with normal weapons is what makes her powerful. She would probably plummet to dead last without it for every boss but Aurelia for the Sentinel.

As the same time I don’t fault her for that reliance, as is creates so many opportunities for diverse play. (With those unintended mechanics :stuck_out_tongue:)

The FB is prevalent because it even out preforms his other builds. Like Grenade Nisha is extremely viable, but no one plays with it because there is no reason to, as Nisha is already a mobbing monster. The same way you don’t see anything that isn’t top tier have high praise.

The “it’s hard to kill yourself” with the FB helps too, plus its lack of terrain reliance. And people tend to forget the SF kills 3+ enemies overtime, but the wow factor of insta-killing one enemy with the FB tends to win out.

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#20

True, but if we took away everything that was unintended, then I don’t even think Sal would be playable. He’d lose every special effect transfer, have no MS chaining, each hand would have a separate mag size requirement for MS, and he would be very squishy.

I am not saying ‘don’t play Sal this way’ - Sal is fun because of the many ways you can break him, but just that alot of his ‘power’ resides within unintended crit transfer. His base power really isn’t as crazy as people seem to suggest it is. I had go so far to say that in the absence of crit transfer, MS and NKLO are actually well balanced skills.

That said. I don’t think life-steal transfer is an exploit. It’s clear that guns like the Rubi and Grog had low base damage because they were intended to heal you in conjuct with your grenades, class skills etc. Which includes Gunzerking of course.

And a lot of the characters rely on “unintended” stuff to draw out a lot of their power, and some times even be viable.

I’m not saying that playing Sal with the Grog or LF is ‘wrong’ or what not - people can play how they want. And alot of these ‘unintended’ game mechanics, like Javelin Krieg or what not are what makes BL so different and diverse. But I feel if we were to do an analysis of a class inherent strength’s and weaknesses, it should be independent of these things. I play Sal with the Grog, and exploit the Lady Fist for mobbing whenever I can.

Although stuff like Zombie Maya is clearly an exploit (the gamemakers tried XD).

I’m pretty sure overlapping hit boxes with B0re was unintended.

Yeah, but I wouldn’t say that Zer0 has the highest DPS just because he can, in theory, achieve infinite DPS with b0re or what not.

Lots of characters take advantage of crit transfer, com swapping, relic swapping, etc… while the game is paused during raids. Not to mention fights like Pete and Vora with the Trespasser.

When I say crit transfer is an exploit, I am not just referring to Sal. For raids, its a tactic available to many classes, but its still pretty much an exploit. While its fun from a min-maxing perspective, it devalues the DPS skills in this game. Axton’s total DPS doesn’t even come close to what inventory-swapping to a lady fist can provide him.

I think even then you might be overestimating her a bit. Would it be fair to say she would be pretty much bottom tier for bosses without TS? Because even past the rocket part, TS criting things like the humanoid Sentinel, the big Sentinel mask, EOS, etc… even with normal weapons is what makes her powerful. She would probably plummet to dead last without it for every boss but Aurelia for the Sentinel.

I’m talking more in terms of raw DPS calcs and mobbing wise. Its pretty unfair to pull in the Sentinel, Felicity or EOS, because from a design perspective, making a boss uncrittable is just pretty dumb. Not sure why the designers of TPS saw fit to design so many bosses like this, but its pretty aggravating honestly. Of course a class as crit reliant as Nisha would be crippled against a boss that can’t be crit - Aurelia sucks against them for the same reason. That’s like pitting grenade Axton or Jack against Saturn or Eclipse. But in terms of DPS calculations, Nisha without TS is still really strong.

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