Maya | A guide to Immolate - how to get the most out of it

Borderlands 2 Maya the Siren
#1

After a quick search on the board, I could not find a comprehensive guide on the damage calculation regarding immolate. Since it’s 2017, odds are I’m re-inventing the wheel here. If so, let me know, and I’ll delete the thread.

If not, I’ll try to describe everything I found on the skill, and how to use it most effectively.
The basics of the skill are quite simple: you use a weapon in Fight for your Life to deal some damage, and you get some extra fire-elemental damage for free with it.
I will base my numbers on TVHM/UVHM/OP levels.

The interesting part is how this fire damage is calculated.
Say for the rest of this post you deal BaseDamage with some gun.
The first step in the calculation is to compute the base immolate damage, which is simply the base damage times whatever % your immolate skill gives.
So ImmoBase = BaseDamage * Immolate%

Immolate, being fire damage in nature, will receive a multiplicative bonus from a fire-elemtal relic , or a fire Bone of the Ancients . It will also recieve a multiplicative bonus from elemental matching .
That is, in UVHM, it will deal 175% to flesh targets, 100% to ‘flesh’ targets in the peak, and 40% to shielded or armored targets. It also deals 300% damage to slagged targets.
Since ImmoBase itself is also affected by all those factors, the final immolate damage effectively gets these bonuses twice, which is what can make it so powerfull.

Most of what I described above is generally known by (veteran) maya players, and would give the following conclusion:
ImmoDamage = immoBase * Slag * MatchingElements * FireRelic

Now for some things which are generally lesser known, and thus the actually interesting part of this post:

  • Immolate will stop working when using a Moxxi weapon in FFYL
  • Immolate will stop working if you activate life tap while in FFYL (e.g. by destroying a car)
  • Immolate will not stop working when specced into Sustenance
  • Immolate will not stop working when you or a team mate have a Nurse class mod equiped
  • Immolate will not stop working if another maya specced into Restoration (tries to) heal you
  • Immolate will not stop working if another maya has elated active while you are in FFYL
  • Immolate will not stop working if you have a health regen relic equipped
  • ImmoDamage does not receive an 80% multiplicative bonus on Deathmarked targets
  • ImmoDamage is not boosted by the Fox class mod
  • The damage over time inflicted by Immolate is boosted by the Fox class mod and Catalyst team members. These bonusses are additive with eachother.
  • The damage over time inflicted by immolate is roughly 1/5 of ImmoDamage per tick. This is without Fox / Catalyst bonus.
  • Immolate damage will get reduced against higher leveled enemies. Since this also applies to BaseDamage , ImmoDamage is effectively hit twice as hard when progressing into the OP levels.
  • Since ImmoDamage is not gun damage, it does not get boosted by Reaper.

To summarize: The only thing that will cancel Immolate are moxxi weapons, the final damage calculation is:

ImmoDamage = immoBase * Slag * MatchingElements * FireRelic * LVLDamageReduction
ImmoDot ~ ImmoDamage / 5 * (1 + FoxCatalystBonus )

I think this covers pretty much all aspects of the skill.
If there are any possible team- or gear-synergies that I missed which might affect the damage calculation, or other aspects that may somehow affect the skill, let me know and I’ll update the post.

I might also need to add some links or something to posts regarding reaper, damage reduction, and how BaseDamage is calculated, since these pretty much all exist already, I think. No clue - as of now - how to do that though. (Still new to this forum and all)

Edit 1:
As an example, consider the following scenario: You have a 25% fire relic equiped, with 10/5 Immolate (100%), 5/5 Reaper and shooting hitting a body shot with a 1kk base damage fire pistol. The target is slagged, deathmarked, flesh type, and 8 levels above you, given 55% damage reduction, leaving 45%:
BaseDamage = ImmoBase = 1kk * 300% * 175% * 125% * 140% (Reaper) * 180% (DM) * 45% = 7,441,875
This gets plugged into the immolate formula:
ImmoDamage = 7,441,875 * 300% * 175% * 125% * 45% = 21,976,788.
The same calculation at OP0 without damage reduction would yield 108,527,344, around 4.9 times as much.

Notice that your effective damage will be BaseDamage + ImmoDamage .

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Is Maya too weak without the update?
#2

I think the important part about the BaseDamage mentioned above is this: as far as I know it’s the number that pops up on the screen, so it already includes slag, elemental bonuses, etc. That means Immolate gets a double dip in slag; when using an incendiary gun with matching elemental relic it gets a double dip in the elemental bonus too; even when attacking armor with corrosive guns Immolate can do some work because it’s based on the damage after the elemental matching bonus and the relic bonus (if applicable) are factored in.
Just don’t try to attack armor with an incendiary gun because then Immolate gets a double dip on the bad fire-on-armor elemental modifier, but who would do that anyway…

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#3

Exactly. What was new to me was that it doesn’t get a double effect from kunai / deathmark, but does get a double (negative) effect when you’re underleveled or in the OP levels.

Let me add an example to the original post to clarify, covering all the things I mentioned.

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#4

This only applies while you’re otherwise immobile in FFYL, correct? As in, once you get out, it’s off?

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#5

It applies to all gun damage you deal while in FFYL yes. It even applies to bullets that you shot before entering FFYL, but that land after you go down.

If you’re not using the immolate glitch, FFYL is the only time you get this bonus.
So yes, as soon as you get up, the bonus ends. It also will not apply to bullets still in the air as you get up.

There is a glitch where you walk around (alive) with 0 health, having it active all the time, but you enter FFYL as soon as you take any damage at all, regardless of shield.

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#6

This was news to me! I assume that you’ve done thorough testing, and are 100 % sure!?

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#7

If by thorough testing you mean shoot the dummy with the grog once in FFYL, wait for slag to wear off and then shoot him with my regular testing gun (a B!tch), to see if I get 2 damage numbers, then yes.
Did that twice, got consistent results, being just a single (non elemental) damage number.

Since as Maya you usually have some DoT or CK active when you go down, and you get moxxi healing from DoTs, just holding the gun in FFYL is generally a bad idea, unless you’re sure you can get up. In that case, you can hold it, so you get up with full health instead of … 25%? 33%? Whatever it usually is.
So you can actually heal yourself in FFYL with moxxi, which cancels Immolate, but makes you get up with more health.

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#8

I was sure it was you that told me about that. I’ve seen that confirmed in a few places. Although I searched unsuccessfully for the link that was referred to me, it was a vid from either Derch or Bahroo.

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#9

Even if the Grog is a very popular gun, it’s not exactly your go-to-gun when you need to get out of FFYL, now is it? :smiley:

I also think you’re rushing ahead a little, stating that this goes for all Moxxi guns. It would be very interesting to get a more extensive test including the other Moxxi guns. I use the Good / Bad Touch every now and then, and it would be great to know for a fact that they cancel out Immolate. I’m not saying that you’re wrong on this. I just want a little more facts to back it up.

I could, ofc, do it myself, but since I’m a lazy bastard, I want someone else to do it.

:smiling_imp:Not guilty, your honor!

But I remember telling someone that Sustenance doesn’t cancel Immolate not so long ago. Perhaps that’s what you’re thinking of.

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#10

Rubi and bad touch cancel it.
I took it a step further even. If, while in FFYL, you destroy a vehicle, which activates your kill skills, life tap in particular, you lose immolate.
Life tap and moxxi healing are the same mechanic, and its the same on all moxxi weapons as far as I’m aware.

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#11

Great job!

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#12

this is very wrong ! (wishful thinking)

splashes don’t double dip slag and vs elemental multipliers !!

Here’s an example I have on hand of corrosive maliwan corrosive pistol damage test ( I was looking into all I need is one at the time )

first test without gunzerking

1017.888 base damage lvl 34 Trenchant Umbrage maliwan pistol
1431.294 ui after first shot // 1017.888 * (1 + 0.115 + 0.29) = 1430.132
2245.604 ui with AINIO 10/5 80% // 1017.888 * (1 + 0.115 + 0.29 + 0.8) = 2244.443 // ADDITIVE :disappointed:

COM ~ 29% pistol damage

BAR
~11.5 gun damage
~9.1 grenade damage

corrosive vs flesh Thm 0.6

damage test

1289431312    69318.000 Max     67970.641 Cur    69318.000 Prev     1347.359 Damage
         0    69318.000 Max     67221.094 Cur    67970.641 Prev      749.547 Damage

calculation
1017.888 * (1 + 0.115 + 0.29 + 0.8) * 0.6 = 1346.6658 // impact
1017.888 * 0.8 * (1 + 0.115 + 0.29) * (1 + 0.091) * 0.6 = 748.932 // splash corrosive benefits from grenade damage bonus lol

notice the corrosive *0.6 vs flesh applied only once . It is the same for the vs slagged multiplier.

I will give you immolate test numbers with fire weapon vs slagged flesh target … Problem is my Maya is lvl 39 and I don’t currently have access to sanctuary to spec out cloud kill that kills pretty much everything and kicks me out of FFLY instantly messing with the test :slight_smile: . (this might take …hopefully a day or so)

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#13

:confused: What exactly are you saying?

Gunzerking!?!?!? On Maya!?!?!? You been sipping Rakk Ale, or what? :partying_face:

Usually, tests are done without BAR, unnecessary skills or unnecessary equipment.

You can take care of that in Liar’s Berg.

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#14

Don’t drink Rakk Ale, unless you like to drink paint thinners. lol

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#15

no slag test first … was afraid the target didn’t have enough HP
used a binary aegis maliwan fire pistol (has built in fire splash)

5/5 immolate
level scaled pistol base damage 1137.4198
~12.2 % BAR GUN DAMAGE
~12.2 % BAR GRENADE DAMAGE

       4219    47531.672 Max     45298.902 Cur    47531.672 Prev     2232.770 Damage // bullet 1 impact
          0    47531.672 Max     43345.227 Cur    45298.902 Prev     1953.676 Damage // IMMOLATE impact
         15    47531.672 Max     41341.590 Cur    43345.227 Prev     2003.637 Damage // maliwan 80% splash
          0    47531.672 Max     39108.820 Cur    41341.590 Prev     2232.770 Damage // bullet 2 impact
         16    47531.672 Max     37155.148 Cur    39108.820 Prev     1953.672 Damage // 5/5 IMMOLATE impact
          0    47531.672 Max     35151.512 Cur    37155.148 Prev     2003.637 Damage // maliwan 80% splash

1137.4198 * (1 + 0.122) * 1.75 = 2232.769 // bullet impact vs flesh
(1137.4198 * (1 + 0.122) * 1.75 ) * 0.5 * 1.75 = 1953.6728 // HOLLY CRAP you guys were right immolate DOES DOUBLE DIP the vs flesh multiplier
1137.4198 * (1 + 0.122) * 0.8 * (1 + 0.122) * 1.75 = 2004.13 // built in maliwan 80% fire splash (gets grenade damage bonus from BAR)

I need to do the slag test now :slight_smile:

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#16

vs slagged target test
(since I save and exited the quest maliwan pistol switched to inflammatory aegis)
level scaled pistol base damage 1435.026

       2407    41590.801 Max     33005.594 Cur    38639.543 Prev     5633.949 Damage // bullet 1 impact
         15    41590.801 Max     23146.180 Cur    33005.594 Prev     9859.414 Damage // 5/5 immolate impact 
          0    41590.801 Max     18090.398 Cur    23146.180 Prev     5055.781 Damage // maliwan 80% splash
       2219    41590.801 Max     12456.447 Cur    18090.398 Prev     5633.951 Damage // bullet 2 impact
         16    41590.801 Max      2597.033 Cur    12456.447 Prev     9859.414 Damage // 5/5 immolate impact 
          0    41590.801 Max         0.000 Cur     2597.033 Prev     2597.033 Damage // maliwan 80% splash (target lacks enough hitpoints )

1435.026 * (1 + 0.122) * 1.75 * 2 = 5635.347 // bullet impact
(1435.026 * (1 + 0.122) * 1.75 * 2 ) * 0.5 * 1.75 * 2 = 9861.857 // immolate 5/5 IT DOES DOUBLE DIP vs slagged and vs target type
1435.026 * (1 + 0.122) * 0.8 * (1 + 0.122) * 1.75 * 2 = 4930.9287 // 80% maliwan splash; Why is the error so high here ? This number is wrong and I cannot figure out why !

This makes immolate relatively strong even when fighting targets non-weak to fire if using slag and appropriate element matching on the gun (for example corrosive vs armor, electric vs shields … It will still double dip the slag 3 * 3 on UHVM and the (correct’s) gun’s elemental matching will compensate somewhat the immolate’s weak multiplier vs armor and shields )

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#17

It just occurred to me . This should mean CRIT damage should be multiplied by immolate :slight_smile: .
Will edit in a reaper crit test result at some point

#18

I can explain the weirdness with Immolate’s interaction with the Fox COM. Fire, Shock, and Corrosive actually each have 2 different damage types associated with them. The first is the direct damage. If you fire a shot and it doesn’t trigger a DoT, that shot still deals Elemental Damage. The names for those are Fire, Shock, and Corrosive. The other part is the DoT damage itself. The names for these are Burn, Electrocute, and Corrode. Anything that affects the Elemental damage also affects the DoT damage, which is why Elemental Relics and the Bone of the Ancients (think I’ve got the name right; they’re the ETech Relics that boost an element and Cooldown Rate) boost the damage of both. However, pretty much all COMs for all classes specify the DoT component (Burn, Electrocute, and Corrode), and this boost does not boost the standard Elemental damage. If you look at the Fox Com, it specifically says that it boosts Burn Damage, not Fire Damage, so Immolate doesn’t get the boost from the Fox Com, but any DoTs it causes do.

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