Reviving Big Sis, the Moxxxi-weapons-only Siren

Borderlands 2 Maya the Siren
#1

Ladies & Germs, now that I’ve gotten a second Siren to OP8, and this one 100% solo, I’m thinking of revisiting that all Moxxxi-weapons build for the first one. Looking for a little feedback on some things, though.

First, the skill tree. This is what I’m thinking, and in conjunction with a Legendary Binder COM. Only 1/5 in Sweet Release, because it gets +5 from the COM. Same for Suspension. I’d put more points into Inertia if I had them, but that’s just not in the cards. With Moxxxi gear granting health regen, I figured those first 5 points in Motion should go to Ward instead of Accelerate. Most Moxxxi weapons have decent projectile speed anyhow, and with the other DPS boosts that Leg Binder gives, it’s not much loss to give up Accelerate’s damage buff.

Now, the gear. This is all stuff left from last time I did this, a couple years ago…

Rubi (all 4 flavors)
Heart Breaker
Good Touch
Bad Touch
Crit
Practicable Slow Hand (all four flavors)
Creamer
Hail (all flavors except Slag, I think)
Kitten (all flavors except Slag, I think)
Kiss of Death (fire, corrosive, explosive)
Cher Amie (Shock and Slag, and one round of Hyperion Slaughter away from a fire one too)

As for the COM, well, I’m figuring Leg Binder is the one. Leg Cat is too Sandhawk-y for a no-Sandy-allowed build, and Leg Siren is a close second place. Leg Nurse is pretty much overkill, with so much healing coming from the weapons. Blurred Trickster would be fun (it’s SO good with Kitten), but just seems too much like cheese for this. Now, if the Banshee COMs were a little better-made, I might be down with that. And in fact, I may still.

Shield? Neogenator, Evolution, or a good purple Adaptive shield, would seem first-choice. Also, Antagonist is a good deal, though it does overlap Kinetic Reflection. And yeah, I know they did a Dahl booster shield for her in TPS, but it just didn’t feel very Moxxxi there. I’ve noticed recently, that a solid Evolution netted me higher total hit points than an Antagonist or BBB, or likely any other shield than a Turtle of some type, and with that high dynamic elemental resistance on top of it. The half-million or so extra health is a big boost. Now, that might work against me in terms of health gate abuse. That remains to be seen. SO, I’m open to suggestions about an alternative shield choice beyond Evo/Neo/Adaptive and Antagonist.

And finally, we come to the question of relic. What’s appropriate? Last time around, I went in with a set of BotA relics (max-stats, one of each flavor). The Miss Moxxi’s Endowment is pretty pointless once you hit level 72, or else that’d be a no-brainer (and a bummer). BotA does feel a little bit like cheesing, though, for this concept. So I’m once again open to suggestions.

And that’s it. Once Little Sis (the other OP8 siren) gets settled-in, I’m gonna go back and grab that third Cher Amie, and reset UVHM for another full-story run. Probably gonna take it slow and do side quests, too. This time around, rather than simply being able to say “I DID IT!”, I want to try to learn something useful about best practices for Moxxxi stuff with Maya.

Some things learned last time around, that have stuck with me? Kitten is a mobbing GOD. Kitten and Heart Breaker work SUPER great with Chain Reaction. Grenade-Rubi/Grog heals don’t work SO great with Kiss of Death, like they do with Chain Lightning.

So, there it is…

#2

Well… You’ll be able to heal yourself at least! :smile:

All in all, it looks like a solid build. I don’t think you need Evo/Neo, unless you want them to fit the theme of the build. They’re the closest thing to a Moxxi shield we have in BL 2. But if that’s not an issue, the go-to shields are, ofc, Blockade and Antagonist. I’ve always felt that they offer better protection.

A Blood of the Ancients could be a nice fit to the build. Raise that health even more, and buff your ammo capacity substancially. Not sure which weapons you will rely on most, but the ammo pools for SMG’s, AR’s and pistols are fairly high already. Perhaps a relic to get some more shotgun ammo and RL ammo?

My final advice would be to gather the skill points that aren’t necessary for getting down the trees (Helios, Sustenance and Fleet), and put them in Inertia. This will help you fight off the DoT’s.

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#3

Agreed on pretty much what you say, the OP’s got 27 in Catacalysm, so there’s only a point to take out of Helios there, which makes more sense than Flicker with the COM. You can also free up at least one point in Harmony by taking a point out of the fairly useless Mind’s Eye skill. I’m not a fan of KR compared to the other skills in that tree, so I would drop the five in that one too. That’s now 7 points we’ve freed up, which can now top off Suspension, so one can keep Wreck active longer and hold Super and Ultimate Badasses longer. That leaves 3 points plus a point to take out of Fleet. That then will allow you at least 4 in Inertia. I like Inertia as much for the Reload speed increase after a kill, a common time to reload, in addition to the shield regen. I think that setup would be stronger, but only testing would confirm.

Normally, with a Binder COM you go with Subsequence as well, but that means no Lifetap or Scorn, so that’s a preference choice and what’s there is reasonable. I can see with the Moxxi theme why you’d want Lifetap of course, plus Sustenance, but it could also be overkill and I’d recommend testing with the more common Binder setup of Quicken and Subsequence to see which gives you more sustainability. Scorn is awesome though…

edit: my suggested changes http://bl2skills.com/siren.html#505001400041055005510554510501

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#4

You’re all articulating way better than I can, right now. I can’t get past, “but… Inertia!” The shield regen is great, and the extra reload speed is so…

I mean, Inertia…

2 Likes
#5

I think @ChemicalConundrum 's build is bang on. I do like my one point in KR however.

3 Likes
#6

I do usually keep a point or two in Inertia. Keeps the DoT away. The visual can get REALLY annoying, but worth it.

EDIT

I’m liking the suggested change. HONESTLY, I wouldn’t go so deep into Harmony, but to grab Scorn.

Also neglected to mention in OP, that Rough Rider is in there and will be heavily used. A good Banshee COM could keep Fleet relevant, even with just 1/5 invested (Unyielding Banshee, +6 Immolate +5 Fleet). Speed is armor, or so they say. Kinetic Reflection helps a lot when under the RR, or when Antagonist goes down (which ain’t often with Inertia).

#7

While character speed is certainly useful to close gaps or to get away, I don’t think either benefits Maya much, as she’s not an up close fighter usually even with shotguns. I think you give up too much with the Banshee COM and RR in terms of damage output and that those are better used to save time running levels or to make otherwise impossible jumps. Just my opinion, there’s some people that like to run with that setup full stop. If you want the option, put a point in Fleet as you have it, but I’d rather have another point in Inertia for the reasons given above. Same with KR, unless you base a build around it, I don’t see how having one point in there helps much.

I would suggest testing the setup you propose against a more standard Binder setup and see which you think gives you more sustainability, something like http://bl2skills.com/siren.html#505001455041050000000554510501 which gives you six points to put wherever basically, Elated, Res, Fleet, KR, Accelerate, top off Inertia etc.

That way, you can see how much you miss Scorn, Life Tap, and more control on your phaselock versus having a faster cooldown between phaselocks and the ability to clear multiple enemies per phaselock, especially on 1 player difficulty. Even without Elated, you would also be getting healing per phaselock holding a Moxxi weapon and you are generally getting multiple phaselocks per use, unless you are fighting something really big. The repeated phaselocks and converge also slag a great deal, but of course can’t be used in FFYL or to shoot down missiles like Scorn.

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#8

A couple of points in Sustenance and Life Tap is great for survivability. 5/5 in each is overkill, but since you use a L.Binder, you don’t have to put 5 points in Sweet release, and that leaves you with no real options except to fill both these skills to get Scorn.

Rough Rider, eh… That puts Inertia out of business! :smiley: Accelerate would give your Slowhands a nice buff, but more Fleet is also fun.

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#9

Well, I may wind up respeccing here and there, so being able to go back to Rough Rider for Fleet, and dropping a ton of points into it in the tree, might be alright at the cost of Inertia. I’d still want KR, to be sure, if I’m running a Rough Rider.

Now, going without SCORN? That’d be rough. That slag Practicable Slow Hand is gonna get a workout (farming a full set of four, all with the Practicable prefix, even without sweating the parts, was SUCH a pain) filling in for the lack of Scorn. On the other hand, that’s just as well. Heart Breaker doesn’t exactly tear through the ammo, so there’ll be shotfun rounds to burn. And an Antagonist can help with that a little, too. Hmm…

So, assuming you’re me and you don’t care for SubSequence (the chance of that thing running off after a surveyor or rakk is not, IMO, worth it, especially as the clock keeps running while it’s seeking and the cooldown doesn’t start until the PL runs out), how about THIS? Wreck, Reaper, and Suspension, all get doubled. In that last case, that’s up to 2.5 more seconds of Wreck being up, which is pretty huge when not using top DPS gear. And when running the RR/Banshee combo for speedy thrills, I’ll pull the 5/5 out of Inertia and drop them all in Fleet, for a STOOPIT fast toon (10/5 or 11/5 Fleet is redonkyulus), or perhaps some combination of the two?

See, that’s the thing. With Kitten, I CAN tank with her. Well, mobs at least. There is nothing in OP8 Sawtooth Cauldron that even breaks a sweat on this girl, when she’s rollin’ Kitten. The non-Moxxxi Maya (Little Sis) has rolled some bosses’ faces with Kitten alone, on RR and Breakneck Banshee and some Seraph relic (from the Oasis vendor, that gives health and health regen by %). That speed is the difference between getting caught by his little swim-in-the-ice trick, and laughing it off. She can keep most skags at comfortable range while backpedaling straight with that kind of speed (though rabid stalkers, at least, CAN catch Maya at 7/5 Fleet, which is honestly pretty crazy). I’m looking at speed more as an option here, and not the sole focus. Kinda answering the question, “DOES high speed work together well with lifesteal weapons to keep Maya alive at OP8?” If not, we’ll have other options under consideration too.

I have a strong feeling that an adaptive shield of some manner is going to be the eventual best answer. That makes any investment in Fleet a poor choice over Inertia, as even 2 points in Inertia with a strong ( >50%) adaptive shield will keep it from breaking under as much DoT as I’ve ever had on me. Fire DoT still crushes even after the RR’s 20% reduction, so I’m sure places like Frostburn Canyon will be tricky with that kind of build. HOT Loaders will suck, too. But we’ll see.

Again, looks like we’ll have to split time between different skill trees and gear, to see what’s working better and what the overall best deal is.

ALL of this feedback is SUPER, BTW. Y’all are alright. I don’t care what Gearbox says about you…

EDIT

So, took out Big Sis for a shakedown run. The only Blood of the Ancients relic I had, does SMG and AR ammo (73.0% each) and health (>50%). Good enough for now, especially with 10/5 Wreck. Kitten devours the ammo when Wreck is up. It’s effective, to be sure. But just wow.

At this point, I think a Bone of the Ancients would be ridiculous overkill. Between the added cooldown and the added elemental damage, it would destroy mobs in ways that would be almost game-breaking.

Bad enough (for the enemies, anyhow) that 5/5 CR in there boosts DPS, on top of stuff like Wreck (and even the meager 4/5 Mind’s Eye, when you’re stuffing the barrel of your Kitten into someone’s face while he’s in the PL bubble). Throw that extra elemental damage multiplier in there, and it would be unfair.

As for the relic, I’m wondering if a Skin of the Ancients might be an appropriate choice? Might be a little broken-overkill on top of an adaptive shield, might not be. And then, what resistances? Corrosive and fire, i’d think, would be the combination to look out for.

Blood might be the relic of choice, but I’d also like to look at finding a new one that does AR and Shotfun ammo. That’s gonna be a LOT of midget farming. The increased ammo consumption of the Slow Hand is noticeable. I started using it to slag between PLs. Down side? Two splats from slag Practicable Slow Hand would drop a healthy trash marauder to about 1/10 of his health bar, so may as well finish him off.

Now, here’s a minor issue. Turned out to be a LOT of Heavy Nomads and Blaster (?) Goliaths down there this time around, and some BA Marauders too. But the two big types like those RLs, and can spam Big Sis into the ground with them pretty quickly. Some switching to Rubi while bounding to cover is in order, methinks. Long as there’s DoT on something, we’ll be alright. But with Kitten or Good Touch or Heart Breaker or Slow Hand, the heals from 2 or 3 enemies’ DoTs just don’t cut it against occasional lucky shots by those RL-toting badguys. Typical Moxxxi guns don’t really have the DPS to get out of FFYL without someone already being well down the road to death anyhow.

And I REALLY need to grab a fire Cher Amie. Might make Little Sis go get that, to pay Big Sis back for all the kickin’ loot. Also, I don’t have a corrosive Hail. Thought I might, but I don’t. And now I remember how much I hated myself for not having it, when I faced Boom Bewm last time I ran Big Sis. So yeah. Need to grab both of those. Hail is a cinch. Cher Amie, not so much. Last wave of last round of Hyperion Slaughter is tricky with this loadout, so again, might just send Little Sis after it when she gets to Eridium Blight. She probably wants a Fibber anyway, so it’s a good place to stop and run some side quests.

Anyhow, that’s my wall o’ text for now. More updates after the weekend; gonna be scarce for a few days. Have a good one, and thanks AGAIN for all the feedback so far!

#10

That spec is going to be nasty. I expect it to be more effective than the first, against most content.

Personally, I always have Ruin plus Scorn, Sub-Sequence, or Thought Lock (I often go TL without SS). My experimenting has taken me to favor those skills heavily. YMMV, of course!

#11

The only guns that are reliable for fast healing are, ofc, Rubi and Grog. The others are more like Sustenance. Some nice healing along the way, and as long as you’re able to slag your enemies, these guns should also be able to get you out of FFYL. They’re not Norfleets, but still pack a punch.

I think you’ll be fine, wether you go with the Banshee or the Binder. Especially after you’ve done all the fine tuning. :wink:

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#12

Agreed here. And really, even Rubi disappoints except against crowds. The Hyperius fight? If there aren’t at least two minions on the field, then Rubi/ChainLightning heals require 2-3 grenades to get back to full. Different build, though, but also no such awesome grenade available. ANYHOO, yeah, Grog is the shizz. Rubi will have to do unless I can find someone to trade a perma-grog (NOT willing to use voldemort.exe for this, and missed the $100k Loot Hunt like a big dummy).

Banshee is really only under consideration for Fleet-abuse with Rough Rider. THOUGH, I suppose she CAN be built with 5/5 Fleet and abuse the RR anyhow. Feeling that Binder is gonna be the mainstay this time around, though, and Fleet may be left at 0/5 in favor of Inertia, Suspension, and Quicken. Quicken + Binder = SO_MUCH_PHASELOCK. And 10/5 Suspension means being able to PL a Goliath, go crush his five or six closest pals, take a break, make tea, check the weather report, and finish off the goliath with a second to spare. Rabids will stand NO chance. Already started really beating the Trickster trick into my head, that the LAST thing you kill after phaselock, is the thing you phaselocked.

On the topic of rabid stalkers, I suddenly think I DON’T have a shock KoD for her; only have the other three flavors. Probably ought to fix that. Little Sis will add that to her to-do payback list, along with corrosive Hail and maybe corrosive Cher Amie (need to get all four for Big Sis, as she has LOTS of room in the backpack anyhow).

Practicable Slow Hand is probably gonna overtake Creamer for the FFYL slot. Honestly, I have yet to really get used to Creamer, and PSH does enough damage accurately enough that it should work. And a slag one is in order, again, since Scorn is lacking. Found myself reaching for Scorn fairly regularly in that shakedown run, and I miss the almost-guaranteed slag. Previous run of Big Sis’s Moxxxi arsenal was what got me hooked on Scorn in the first place.

EDIT

Forgot what I came to say! On healing with other Moxxxi guns, that’s USUALLY enough. With Inertia up, additional damage is going to shield first. Since EVERY weapon is Moxxxi, as long as she’s doing damage she’s getting health back. And there are so many loot drops/spawns through the game that health pickups figure in as well. But mainly, Ward and Inertia help keep damage on shields instead of health once the killing starts, so the lesser regen rate is alright for anything short of mini bosses. And when those come around, habit is already to put Rubi or Grog in the game. :wink:

#13

A couple of things.

I’m a fan of the 1 point in fleet. It’s incredible utility for 1 point investment. I would keep it and take the point for it from suspension. Are you really gonna miss that half second of phaselock time?

Moxxie weapons turn off Immolate atfer the first shot that lands a hit (it heals you and this turns off Immolate). Those points should go elsewhere. I’d drop them in Blight Phoenix for the radius healing from your Moxxie weapons after a kill.

Somthing like this.

#14

I thought that Moxxi weapons are fine with Immolate because you are in FFYL and aren’t being “healed” as you have no health till the second wind?

#15

@Derch’s Maya skills guide seems to agree with you. All I can think of is some trade off between points in Immolate and Helios (depending on the rest of your build and which class mod you’re using.)

#16

You do, in fact, Moxxie heal while in fight for your life. It’s easy to test. Go into FFYL, light something up a little with a Moxxie, then second wind with a non-Moxxie (to prove you don’t just Moxxie heal off of that last shot that gets you up). You’ll see you get up with way more health.

#17

I didn’t remember that. Thanks for the reminder.

Not sure if I’d keep Immolate for even just ONE hit/shot worth of its effect, or change-up to 4/5 Flicker. Putting any points at all into Blight Phoenix, though, is a no-no for me. I’m NOT a fan of that skill at all. MIGHT have been okay with a very conscientious effort to throw LOTS of Scorn ahead of me, to pop barrels before I down myself with BP. But lacking Scorn, no, just not happening. Flicker may be pretty much useless, but at least it’s pretty unlikely to put me in FFYL all on its own.

Haven’t had a lot of time for gaming in the past week, but hopefully will be back to playing with this (and finishing up equipping her) by Sunday. She’s lacking a fire Cher Amie (I want to experiment with that, and shock and slag aren’t quite getting it for me) and corrosive Hail, both owed to her now by Little Sis (the no-limits counterpart). We’ll get there.