What if Zarpedon didn't die on Helios?

Borderlands: The Pre-Sequel BL: TPS Gameplay Discussion (Spoilers!)
#1

So I recently started playing TPS again after a long hiatus and I got to thinking about something I hadn’t thought about before: What if Zarpedon’s alive?!

I don’t have a lot of evidence and I’m not saying that she is alive, but I do wonder…

My first thought was, why does she not respawn? Although I’ve wondered this since release, and we all did when mini-bosses didn’t respawn (frustrating times). Now sure, you could argue that the arena we fought her on was destroyed when Moxxi imploded the Destroyer’s Eye, but why doesn’t she instead respawn at the end of the Lunar Launching Station? Or just on a new arena, another part of Helios? She doesn’t even spawn in The Holodome (although that’s just a retelling of the story, I get that, but why didn’t she respawn there? She was integral to the story, she was the main antagonist!). WHAT IF, she didn’t respawn because she’s not dead? We know that she’d been (or seen) inside The Vault of the Sentinel, and we know something happened to her there (hey eyes are kinda a giveaway) but we don’t know what…
THEN there’s “The Watcher”, the being who for whatever reason appeared before Zarpedon and warned her about the then handsome Jack, it even went as far as to protect her from Jack at the beginning of the story, yet when the deathmatch loomed it was nowhere to be found, why didn’t it intervene then? Perhaps it did save Zarpedon but we didn’t see that, perhaps it knew Jack would fail to kill her (It seems to know things) or perhaps Zarpedon is so non-human after whatever happened in the vault that she simply didn’t die and managed to escape or be rescued before Moxxi imploded The Eye?

Perhaps this goes even deeper, perhaps The Watcher saved her once only for her to die at the appropriate time, if she died earlier Jack may have succeeded in his plans but have been even more powerful (Eye of Helios). Perhaps, just PERHAPS, Jack was supposed to open the vault, then die in there. The flow of events may have played out very differently had he control of The Eye of Helios. The Watcher seems to be mighty powerful, but does very little with its power, perhaps we will see it again in BL3, perhaps it will be a playable character, perhaps, perhaps, perhaps…

Anyway, this is all just speculation, I’m not claiming to know anything here just thinking with my fingers. But, perhaps eh?

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#2

Makes sense. Plus, isn’t that the same watcher from the end cinematic? As much as I was disappointed with that game as a whole, I did enjoy the story and what questions it offered. I don’t think she’s dead. Although now I’m curious how events would have played it had she not attacked the space station. Jack uses the eye to instantly get to the warrior vault and uses Angel to charge the key. Because of the key and the need for eridium, the timeline would still be the exact same. Would anything really have changed?

#3

The gameplay was disappointing, but everything else was excellent.

Would the timeline have changed? Quite possibly, Jack could have mined a lot more eridium in much less time with the eye, he may not have had to hire vault hunters as he could just blast a hole in Pandora, the other vault hunters would probably be dead and Sanctuary would have been obliterated, or never have existed in the first place. With The Warrior and The Destroyer’s Eye, plus we saw evidence that Nakayama was trying to clone it, who knows how ultimately powerful Jack could have become. Perhaps him freeing The Destroyer then it being killed were part of The Watcher’s plan to bring more Eridians to Pandora, possibly more Sirens? It may not be in league with the other Eridians, rather against them, if it even an Eridian at all.

#4

I’ve been wondering if the watcher was an eridian. They seem to want to avoid saying it. Plus, they call the Warrior “an ancient Eridian warrior” which leads me to believe that the weird aliens like the Watcher are actually Not the eridians, but those who fought against them. Probably to keep them from dominating the universe, since their tech was incredible.

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#5

Wow, that’s a great theory I hadn’t thought of before. It does seem odd that they’d have a biological nightmare for a weapon, what the hell did they need such a monstrosity for?! Anyway it’s not much of a weapon, it was killed by mortals lol.

And The Destroyer, they imprisoned that thing and aptly named it, but it was killed by mortals.

What am I missing here, what are these things really?!

#6

See, you have the myth viewpoint. I’m looking at it as if the eridian stories were inflated. Yes, their tech is great (so we think, since it’s practically magic to us) but it relied upon one element that, so far, is only in one place. So really, they may have actually collapsed the way our world will of oil suddenly disappeared.
The Warrior was like that thing in Star Wars… Ragnor or something, the big ass thing they Luke kills in 6. A practically mindless slave monster. It could have been a giant mutated Eridian, a la Bloodwing. I can’t remember, does it resemble a large scale Watcher? The destroyer was incredibly powerful. Had it been unleashed on a city or something, it may have done a lot more damage. And you gotta think about how long it’s been locked up. Does it need to eat? Did it get weaker over (presumed) centuries?

Oh and we’re gonna disagree about the presequal. There were so many things about that thing that made me disappointed with Australia. It just felt like they tried too hard, and it fell flat. But lazy at the same time, in some aspects. And a lot of the characters were pretty freaking horrible, imho. Like pickle.
And I cannot stand Jainie Springs. But maybe that’s because she’s constantly bashing my country. Which normally I don’t mind. But since bl 1-2 are from Murica, and just about everyone in those games seems to be gay… Her going on about homophobia and whatnot really bothered me. Especially considering gay marriage still is only partially legally recognised in Australia. Sorry, tangent over…

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#7

Not really, it has six limbs and doesn’t have that elongated neck or a face that looks like a mask on a stick. It’s looks more “animal” than humanoid by comparison.

This is an interesting perspective, and it’s not hard to see from as that’s how we look at our past mythos, i just never applied it to the BL universe, but it makes sense. If this was true though, and The Warrior was an exaggerated story, then wouldn’t Jack have known that and not gotten so overly excited by it? Perhaps, what came out of that vault was not Jack… Though, he did foresee the events after his death, if only briefly, he saw the hologram of the vaults in the surrounding solar systems, which happened after Lilith touched the vault key… The Destroyer too, may have been killed remarkably easily, but the power of its eye though…

This makes more sense to me than inflated stories over the ages, considering that it was real and what it was. It could have been biologically immortal, but even then it would require an energy source, so perhaps it was in a state of dormancy? So much lore yet so little… BUT, this got me to thinking… What if the things inside the vaults aren’t weapons themselves, but pieces of weapons, or they contain pieces of weapons, the eye of the Destroyer was shown to be self-aware and very powerful. So, each vault contains a significant part of a weapon rather than a weapon itself and these organisms are no more than guardians, gate-keepers if you will, and The Watcher - which is a very cryptic and questionable entity - is either destroying or even harvesting them for its own agenda. It knew that Jack needed the vault hunters and set up a chain of events that would lead to them being summoned and ultimately destroying these gate-keepers, while bringing Sirens into the fold at the same time. Damn it, WHAT IS THE WATCHER AND WHAT DOES IT WANT?! The speculation could go on forever lol.

Hey now, I don’t blame all of america for Donald Trump :stuck_out_tongue: Or Hillbilly, for that matter…

Yes, I agree. 2K Australia was a small project, gaming industry is virtually non-existent in this country and TPS was by far the biggest game to be produced here. An inexperienced company with inexperienced employees who were way in over their heads, it was a damn shame and I don’t know why or how GBX and 2K didn’t see this coming.

Don’t get me started on that little ■■■■, he was poorly written at the least.

Eh, I enjoyed the humour, but maybe that’s because I’m Australian. Stereotyping is something that we do and take with a grain of salt, there are no boundaries when it comes to Australian comedy and America is just a prime target for us, I guess I wont get too much into why but most of the Australian I’ve met (and that’s a lot, since I’m 27 and have lived here my whole life) have a pretty, eh, bleak opinion of the US. That’s not necessarily a reflection of the people of your country, rather the administration. Picking on America is just a running gag in Australia.

Partially? LOL not even remotely. A few years back gay marriage was actually legalised in Canberra, so gay couples from all over Aus flew to Canberra to get married. I think it was three days before the decision was overturned. Our recently sacked PM (Yeah, our political parties make decisions without our consent just as much as yours do, going as far as replacing PMs when they see fit or when a major lobbyist threats to pull their “donations”, there are no secrets about how corrupt our political system is) was a massive homophobe, he was a flat out ■■■■ and everyone hated him, he was only voted in because his opponent was also a replacement PM who was privately sworn in after her predecessor was sacked, thanks to two tyrannical lobbyists. It’s more of a rip at the southern states and the Republican party than all of America, we get it but I understand that others may not and Americans in particular may not appreciate what we call humour. We also know what our country is and who our alleged “representatives” are, you should hear the jokes we make about ourselves and our own government! And yeah, we do call our mates ■■■■ and we call c*nts mate, that’s no joke, you might think we’re backwards but we think the same about you :wink:

#8

Actually. It looks like a Kraggon. Like, even the glowing chest.

I like the idea of them being pieces of weapons! That’s different, but so far fitting, seeing as we’ve killed a few of em.
As far as Jack knowing, how? He saw some, but he obviously didn’t see his own death. Wait. He saw the map. Do you think he could’ve put in motion a hunt for more vaults!?
Wait. Sirens existed before the vaults were being opened, no? Lilith had her tattoos as a child. “When I was a kid there were two things boys made fun of me for, my tattoos…” So while they’re all connected, those don’t make sirens. Unless… What are the odds that two of the six (dunno if that’s lore or Jack breaking the fourth wall) possible sirens are drawn to the vaults? Three, if you count Angel. Why are sirens determined to hunt the vaults? Is it something more than chance?
I was actually thinking a bit of both. The vault monsters were there for a Really long time, and so the story could be inflated. They also could just be old, lacking energy, decayed, etc. And as far as there only being one Warrior… What if there wasn’t? I mean, imagine a race that mutated themselves into monsters, standing guard of vaults in case their people ever return? A horde of warriors, and that was just the last? A few (probably weaker/smaller) destroyers, and that’s the last/most powerful? You’re right. Speculation is endless.

I do… Or I will come the next for years :frowning:

I didn’t know that about you guys, that you don’t really make games. By that standard, the game was a raging success! I liked the game, but I did hold it to the standard of Bl2. Which may have been incredibly unfair. And they outsource a lot of games.

Oh I’m not saying don’t make fun of America! I just think that if they’re gonna make fun of a country, they shouldn’t do it for something that they’re actually worse about than the one they’re making fun of. By all means, insult us! What do you think we have Canada, France, Britain and France for? Yes. I put France twice. Because France. :wink:

I didn’t know your politics sucked as badly as ours… Yay! I mean ■■■■■■, but misery loves company :slight_smile:
Yeah, it’s no different here.

Did you just imply that you guys stereotype more than America? Or even as much? We have a possible president saying that he wants to kick all the Muslims out. I mean… It’s about to become our damn foreign policy! I wish I could leave. As much as I make fun of Canada, it does sound pretty nice these days.

#9

That’s a for real thing? I always thought that was just the stereotype like how you’ll never hear one of us Canadian’s calling someone a Hoser, no matter how thick the accent is.
Local dialects aside.
Zarpedon.
Her final dialogue with Jack and one of the echos in Vorago Solitude suggest she’s seen the future with the artifact in the vault herself. So while I really doubt she’d be alive(between the sucking chest wound, shot to the face, and the explosion of the eye) I’d also think that maybe she knew that she would die on Helios. The reason why the Watcher saved her in the beginning and not at the laser is because that’s what’s supposed to happen to set history on its path.
Seeing the future could bring up a whole lot of weird time-shenanigans.
The Watcher shows up to prepare the Vault Hunters for some sort of war doesn’t he?
No Jack means no Zero/Sal/Axton/Maya, No Jack means no crimson raiders. No group who is both “good”, using that term loosely, and strong enough to fight whatever this war is.
Zarpedon dies to set Jack on his path to set the Vault Hunters on theirs to save the Universe.
While I guess that doesn’t confirm she’d be dead or alive, it’d be oddly appropriate for the woman who’s tag line was “One Death to save Millions.” to have to die to set off those events.

#10

But the watcher also doesn’t want them killing Athena because something along the lines of “you’re going to need all the help you can get.” So, while I understand toughening everyone up… That whole corporate war kinda defeated that purpose, did it not? How many died because of that?
In arguing for the sake of devil’s advocate, I can totally see where you’re coming from.

#11

Four, including Commandant Steele. But yes, pretty big coincidence in a big universe. They could be drawn by instinct, or some other sense that normal humans don’t have. But I don’t believe in coincidence, and there is no such thing as coincidence in fiction. They’re not all there by chance, something brought or lured them there, something more than just primal instinct, just listen to Maya’s ECHOs.

Sadly, Jack has been confirmed dead so we can’t speculate on that, but… He was a full blown megalomaniac with a grossly inflated hero complex, if he really acted of his own free will then his paradigm could have shifted from “live forever” to “die a martyr” in The Vault of the Sentinel. It fits his personality, and for whatever reason The Watcher spared him despite saving Zarpedon from him and enlisting her to kill him… Perhaps he knew more than we saw? Or, what if he wasn’t acting of his own free will, he thought something inside him awakened but really his desires were being controlled. Something changed in that vault - He was no saint when he went in but he went from budding to full bloom in an instant - something more than just prophetic visions. Something that also happened to Zarpedon, who had similar personality traits…

Damn it, where’s Anthony Burch, WE NEED TO KNOW!

Yes and yes. my biggest gripe with TPS is that it was the successor to BL2. Were it a stand alone game, I would see it as excellent. But alas, it had a huge standard to live up to and wildly unrealistic expectations coming from 2K Australia. I commend that team, they really did try, but it was just too much.

I mentioned that our humour is largely based on stereotyping, did I mention that hypocrisy is our second best form of humour? :stuck_out_tongue:

HAHA! Bloody white flaggers!

We may be a part of the fictitious “Commonwealth” but we’re just another state of America mate, nothing more nothing less. Pine Gap, the installation at Harold E. Holt Naval Base, JORN, the massive secret “observatory” (SPY BASE) just outside of the town where I live (The one on the news years back, there was a “competition” between South Africa, NZ and Aus as to where it would be built and we “won”). Just another state, England “owns” the land but America controls it. Ever heard of Gough Whitlam? Yeah…

HA! You’ve never heard of Pauline Hanson, mate Trump is a rank amateur at that game :wink:

#12

Yeah, that’s for serial. You should hear I talk to my mates, and the way my partner and I talk to each other! Aussie women have filthier mouths than the men lol.

As for the rest, kennysded pretty much ninja’d my reply.

#13

I thigh Steele was confirmed not actually a siren, she just put out rumours and painted her tattoos like she was one? Make people more scared to fight her and whatnot.
With Maya, I remember up till her attacking that guy. Then Jack flipped and said “Angel. Find her.”

I meant before he died. He could’ve set plans in motion before he died if he saw that. And I can’t remember how the TftB ended, but Jack isn’t… Entirely dead. Not exactly.

Holy ■■■■ they did both believe the same things. That’s… Huh. They both slaughtered in the name of “saving” people. I wonder about that. To be fair, you do the exact same thing, so Iunno.

I’m pleased to have stolen the ideas from your head and posted them before you could :wink: I’m just chuckling and avoiding country talk - I think we’ve derailed enough for one major chunk of thread.

#14

It was “confirmed” in Borderlands: Origins that Steele was a Siren, and I do believe Origins is canon.

Nah, Jack’s Vault Hunters were just mercenaries, they only killed in the name of payment.

Though I don’t know what “country talk” is, I think I agree.

#15

Ah, well then I stand corrected. Four of six sirens. We only have two left to see :confused: I really hope one is a main antagonist. That would be awesome.
Yes and no. They did it at first because of that. But if you listen to their responses to his gradual transformation, Athena is not happy with him. The other two, yeah, they had fun killing. And! There is no proof that bl2 characters were really any different, as they just do what they want to find the vault it seems.
Country talk = talking smack about our respective countries :stuck_out_tongue: entertaining though it is, it’s too amusing and derailed my attention too much.

#16

Oh! I know this is a little off topic. But are sirens born? Because two of them are dead. I wonder if they’re “made,” or if some mystical thing just finds a new host when they die.

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#17

I’ve often wondered this. Lilith, Maya, and Angel all seem to have been that way since they were children, which would lean you to believe that they’re born, but that may not necessarily be the case for all Sirens.

#18

It’s obvious that the Eridians and some of their tech operate outside of space-time.
And given the capabilities of the Eleseer Vault (which functions as sort of an observatory) and statements by Zarpedon and the Watcher, we’re safe to assume that they are actively manipulating the time line throughout the entire game.

My thought concerning Eridium and the Eye of the Destroyer is the following: In normal operation, the Eye uses Eridium as fuel (or is it food? being organic tech and all :smile: ).

So, what if the destruction of the Eye only took place to ensure that Jack would use the Eridium to charge up the Vault Key (during BL2) instead of using it on keeping his new WMD fueled? :wink:

I always pictured the full-grown Destroyer contained in the original BL1 Vault as a sort of Orbital Flak, being able to potentially reach targets up to the edge of the solar system (to defend the Vaults in this system).
The appearance of Eridium on Pandora fits into this theory very nicely (Ammo Supply).
But whatever the Eridians put in place to assure the emergence of Eridium is most likely an automated process. That means it will most likely only occur once (VERY limited total supply), or happen again (cyclical re-fueling, alike to how small-scale Eridian weapons recharge their energy). But given their perspective on time, it is unlikely that another ‘Eridium Outburst’ (for the lack of a better term) would happen within Jack’s lifespan. So either way, his Eridium supply is technically limited.

#19

Ah I like this! Could explain why The Watcher enlisted Zarpedon but didn’t save her the second time around, everything was already put in place for the eye to be destroyed. That’s good thinking!

#20

Just gonna throw this out there. When you get to the Destroyer fight in BL1, Angel tells you that the Destroyer is immortal in its own realm, but once it is drawn into our realm through the Vault, it becomes mortal. Makes you think about why the Eridians would imprison something into a realm that makes it immortal, instead of just killing it in a realm where it can actually be killed. They may not be the benevolent protectors of the universe that they seem to come off as.

SICK PLOT TWIST

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