The best Unkempt Harold is not DPUH

Borderlands 2 BL2 General Discussion
#1

I know, sacrilege. I mean what’s the easiest way to put explosive pistol damage down-range, right? Well there’s a statistical view I’d like to share. You can derive a relative number of the various parts of an item by assuming if ‘the higher the number the better’ then multiply by it, and ‘the lower the number the better’ divide by it (reload speed). With that as the premise you can change the parts one-at-a-time and put the results in a matrix and compare.
Here’s what I’ve got for an Unkempt Harold accessory list.
Accessory Bayonet Accuracy Double None Stability Mag Damage Firerate
Damage 16227 16227 30290 16227 16227 16227 17525 16011
Accuracy 0.893 0.919 0.8 0.893 0.905 0.893 0.893 0.893
Fire Rate 2 2 1.6 2 2 2 2 2.4
Reload Speed 2.3 2.3 2.3 2.3 2.3 2.5 2.3 2.3
Magazine Size 6.67 6.67 4.67 6.67 6.67 9.33 6.67 6.67
Relative cmp 84046.1 86493.2 78722.4 84046.1 85175.5 108158.7 90769.0 99512.8

Note the Mag size is calculated too - the raw max mag is divided by ammo consumed by each shot. In this way you can see that consuming 6 rounds per shot as the DPUH does lets you get 4 2/3 shots off for every agonizing reload. Yes, the mag accessory adds .2 seconds to that painful reload time but you’re getting MORE than twice the capacity before you have to do it. That seems like a good dps optimization to me.
I’ve used this on Sal with a slag off-hand to great effect. I think the Crammed Unkempt Harold is the one to look for.

#2

Everyone seems to be obsessed with dps, and willingly kneel down at the altar of the DPS-god. And then they run out of ammo!

The gun that suits peoples playstyle best, is what’s best for them, right!? I get better results from a DPUH than a Crammed, Hard, Explicit… or whatever, simply because I like the burst damage I get from it. In some cases it’s better to be able to keep the pressure on the enemy, and sometimes you just whip out a Norfleet, and kill everything. Burst damage!

4 Likes
#3

When ammo isn’t an issue (or less) like with Salvador, burst damage is preferred. For others, UH already got high ammo consumption, so most used it for burst damage and DPUH delivers the best of it.

Doing the math…
DPUH -> 302905/((5/1.6)+2.3) is around 28K DPS
Crammed UH -> 1622710/((10/2)+2.5) is around 21K DPS

Apparently DPUH also wins in DPS (someone correct me if I’m wrong with the DPS calculation)

P.S. this is just from gun card damage, real testing would count how many projectiles hits + splash

2 Likes
#4

Quite! There appears to be some variation in spread, but I haven’t done any systematic comparison (although I have quite a few different UH’s so it’s certainly something I could do.)

#5

UH’s bullet split pattern wouldn’t differ though, and the difference in accuracy stat isn’t making much difference because of the split pattern.

#6

I use a DPUH on Krieg for enemies I want dead quickly, like UBAs, Goliaths, bosses, and the like. I treat it like a close ranged shotgun and not a medium ranged pistol. For medium range, I use an Ogre or a Badaboom instead. The numbers might point one towards a different variant, but numbers don’t always matter in the heat of combat. If I was a mid-ranged fighter like Sal, I’d probably go for a Hard or Explicit instead. Since I don’t, it’s a DPUH all the way baby.

2 Likes
#7

btw how do you make those “relative cmp” numbers?

fyi, I use

damage * number of shots in one mag / ((number of shots in one mag / fire rate) + reload speed)

to calculate the DPS in my previous reply. It is a formula to calculate a gun’s DPS in one mag cycle, I found it myself but apparently the community used the same formula earlier before me.

1 Like
#8

If you’re Sal (thus ammo isn’t a concern) DPUH has the best DPS.

If you’re anyone else, you’ve got other weapons for most situations and the Harold is only taken out for big baddies, thus needing more burst, thus DPUH is best.

If you want to use a Harold as a main weapon, hard, explicit, or crammed are good choices.

#9

dpuh does 600863 on the card
hard harold does 685491
(for testing, all parts are the same except accessory)

the dpuh gets 4 shots at 12
the hard gets 7 shots at 6

damage per shot for the dpuh is 12 * 600863 = 7.2e6
the damage for the hard 4.1e6

damage per magazine 7.2e6 * 4 = 28e6
for the hard: 4.1e6 * 7 = 28e6

it takes me about 0.8 seconds to empty the hard and 0.5 seconds to empty the double. the hard has a reload speed of 2.3 and the dpuh has a reload of 2.9. hard total time taken is 2.3 + 0.8 = 3.1 while the dpuh would have 2.9 + 0.5 = 3.4.

dpuh damage per mag/per time = 28.8e6 / 3.4 = 84.8e6
hard damage per mag/per time = 28.8e6 / 3.1 = 92.9e6

it’s important to remember, however, that the dpuh cost more ammo. so at even casual shooting speeds, the DPUH does 9% less damage for 14% more ammo cost.

without accounting for accuracy, the dpuh is a fairly terrible weapon compared to the hard. i’m sure people with faster trigger fingers could shoot the hard much faster. at faster shooting speeds, the hard will massively win out.

the caveat is that using animation cancels to overcome fire rate means that the weapon will not automatically reload and the number of shots will have to be calculated to allow for efficient reload times.

#10

Looks like you used a Jakobs grip. What about a matching grip for the mag/reload bonus?

#11

Not going to factor in time between Money Shots, or a Zero who uses the DPUH’s first shot out of Deception? Skills change the situation considerably, and as @Ronnie_Rayburn says, burst is a thing.

#12

Formula is from the numbers on the card:
Damage * Accuracy * Fire Rate * (Mag Size / Rounds per shot) * Element Dmg if any * Element Chance if any / Reload Speed
DPUH: 30290 * .8 * 1.6 * 4.67 / 2.3 = 78722.4
Crammed: 16227 * .893 * 2 * 9.33 / 2.5 = 108158.7

Crammed has better accuracy by 9.3%, better fire rate by .4 second, and twice the mag.
DPUH has double damage per trigger and .2 second faster reload.

#13

I see you are factoring accuracy. In practice, UH will either hit or miss depending on player skill and enemy type, not accuracy, regardless of accessory, thanks to its unique spread pattern. The number of projectiles missing or hitting will be quite similar either.

#14

Also that’s a weird formula.

Here’s what I found when factoring accuracy:

DPUH: 3029050.8/((5/1.6)+2.3) is around 22K DPS
Crammed UH: 16227100. 893/((10/2)+2.5) is around 19K DPS

DPUH still wins in one mag cycle DPS.

#15

You’re not using the numbers here, and that reload time seems very different.

#16

the unkempt harold is a win regardless of prefix. personally i like the intense harold.

#17

great catch, apparently the parts weren’t the same, i wasn’t looking close enough. the DPUH with all matching torgue is

592400
but also, i realized my axton had some skills adding bonuses. my apologies, i figured axton would be a good test only because he was the only one holding one.
the hard is actually 685491 and has 7 shots. the mag size is 20 stock, at 3 each, the seventh shot only uses 2 shots. i reset my skills on gaige to prevent any weirdness.
the dpuh has 5 shots. the last shot only using 4 rounds. this will actually be important, interestingly, since i think 2 shots is still enough to fuel the full 6 pellets.

so the DPUH has 592400 and fires 12 pellets = 7.1 M per shot
the hard does 685491 and fires 6 = 4.1 M per shot
the DPUH has 5 shots * 7.1 = 35.5 M per mag
and the hard has 7 * 4.1 = 28.8 M per mag

originally, my fire rate was 0.5 seconds for 4 shots and 0.8 seconds for 7. this intuitively makes sense. however, upon closer inspection, the 0.5 estimate means i’m taking 0.125 seconds per shot and the 0.114 seconds for the other - which is not fair, so i’ll assume here that it takes me a perfect 0.125 seconds per shot, for every shot.

so the 5 shots for the dpuh would take: .625 seconds
the 7 shots for hard would take: .875

damage per second is consequently
dpuh: 35.5 M / (.625 + 2.3) = 12.1 M / mag
hard: 28.8 M / ( 0.875 + 2.3) = 9.06 M / mag
with same parts, they both have the same reload

the DPUH is doing 34% more damage per mag for 40% more ammo. i only rounded because it was convenient to type, i actually kept 12 sig figs.

if it’s assumed that the ratio of shots is always 7:5, there is no speed at which the hard will overtake the DPUH. of the 1035 max pistol ammo, the DPUH will lose 6% (62 rounds). for the astute, it may be obvious that 5 shots requires 3 clicks and 7 shots requires 4 clicks. this ratio is 0.75. however, the ratio of 5:7 is very close 0.71. at this point, i feel like it’s close enough that it’s irrelevant. and furthermore, the 5:7 ratio is representative for the people who only use the shoot button to shoot.

2 Likes
#18

DPUH: 3029050.8/((5/1.6)+2.3) is around 22K DPS
Crammed UH: 16227100. 893/((10/2)+2.5) is around 19K DPS

Is this a commonly accepted formula for DPS? Doesn’t it render mag size irrelevant since it’s used both as numerator and denominator?

One thing I didn’t realize was that with 4 rounds left in a dpuh mag you still get a shot with full damage/pellets. Thanks for that nothng.

1 Like
#19

As I said even though I found it myself, I also found the community has been using the same formula even earlier. DPS is rarely questioned these days since a lot of things have been figured out now about the game.

It’s not about which is a numerator and which is denominator, it’s about where to put the numbers. I used to use a similar formula before finding it’s a bit off in calculations, and improved it, only to find this exact formula I use for now.

I also have a formula for calculating DPS over the whole ammo reserve, but it’s ineffective since in BL2, ammo is rarely an issue. In raids it’s important though, especially like vs Hyperius or Vorac where there are no ammo source. As it’s just some of the raids, it’s still a rare occasion.

edit: the basic idea is

DPS in one reload cycle = damage of whole mag / time to unload all round + reload time

#20

"DPS in one reload cycle = damage of whole mag / time to unload all round + reload time"
You’re making me think about what we mean by Damage Per Second. I think you’re right to include reload time, but I think that should be added to total time for the full cycle. Then the time where damage occurs should be a percentage of total time.
So total time to complete the cycle is 5 shots / 1.6 shots per second + 2.3 seconds for reload = 5.425. 58% of that time is for shooting.
For the crammed it’s 10 shots/2 shots per second + 2.5 seconds = 7.5. 67% of the time is shooting.
Maybe we could call this aggregate damage per second. I see your point we ignore accuracy since this thing in any incarnation is nearly a blunderbuss. So we have this simple formula:

Damage * FireRate * %of time damage occurs.
DPUH: 30290 * 1.6 * .58 = 28109
Crammed: 16227 * 2 * .67 = 21636

I have to agree you’re right in regards to a simple dps calculation. I still find a Crammed UH more survivable with a gunzerker gunzerking using a moxxi weapon off-hand since putting no damage downfield for a longer time is more of a liability. This isn’t quite the same thing as that relative index comparison number I was doing.

I’m sticking with my weird formula. It’s just all the numbers on the cards unweighted. Even though many don’t consider accuracy, including it makes a pretty good formula for just about any weapon. It also seems to account for that reload downtime in a way I hadn’t thought about before.